The development of the Indian katar

Pukka Bundook · 26th September 2015, 03:55 PM

What is so fascinating about these Southern katars, is that the engraving is symbolic, not just ornamental.
I recall Jens, looking up your 'fish' katar, and finding a meaning.
I do not recall it now in sufficient detail to write it here, I may make a mistake.

It is the same with the peacock, and the Yali.
It appears these Met katars are all from Tanjore??

Rick · 26th September 2015, 04:32 PM

I believe the fish was the first incarnation of Vishnu .

Jens Nordlunde · 26th September 2015, 04:53 PM

Eric,
Thank you for showing these quite fantastic katar side guards and the addtional museum texts. Do you agree with all the downloaded museum texts here and on your homepage?
I do however fail to see, how these pictures and the museum texts brings us any closer to getting an answer to the question - the development of the katar.

Richard,
Yes the symbolism is there, and in many other places as well.
The fish - Matsya is said to be the first avatar of Vishnu, as he saved the first man from drowning by making himself a fish. It is also used in the coat of armes of Oudh. It was highly appresiated when a golden fish on a pool was given by the Mugahal emperor to someone of destinction.
The peacock, besides from being a royal bird, is connected to Dugra, but also to Murugan the god of war, and the commander-in-chief of the gods.
To this comes that several of the animals and the plants used for decoration can have many different meanings, depending from where in India they are used.

Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 26th September 2015, 09:49 PM

One other thing that just came to mind is, that the katars shown in Hamza all have relatively short side guards - Hamza was made in mid 16th century.
In Elgoods new book Arms and Armour, at the Jaiput Court, he shows on page 80-81 an all steel katar, without any decoration, being 93.5 cm long with a blade of 48 cm. Dated to late 16th or 17th century.
Maybe this does not have to mean much, as when the katar was fully developed, there would still be some who would want to make 'new' forms.

estcrh · 27th September 2015, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Eric,
Do you agree with all the downloaded museum texts here and on your homepage?
I
do however fail to see, how these pictures and the museum texts brings us any closer to getting an answer to the question - the development of the katar.

Jens, I have changed some of the Mets descriptions, they are certainly not all correct, on pinterest in general it is easy to edit descriptions. Often images from auction houses, museums and dealers do not provide good or full descriptions and it is easy to add additional details if you have that knowledge. I do get messages quite often by people who disagree with some of the descriptions and I do take every effort to check out what they say and correct wrong information. Pinterest does allow you to make a particular board private (secret) so that only you can see what is stored on it, this is helpful when doing reasearch on photos that you are not sure of yet, you can still share links from a private board.

Unfortunately I am not able to add any additional information on development, other than to observe on what you have already stated and to share my thoughts. It is my opinion that the kater may have developed in relation to the development of Indian armor, what may have started out as a light slashing weapon may have had to be significantly strenghtened in order to penetrate the ever stronger armor that Indian warriors wore. Finding older carvings, and illustrations if they are available that can be accurately dated and that show kater (and armor) would be one of the best ways to see the development other than going to India in person.

26th September 2015, 03:55 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	What is so fascinating about these Southern katars, is that the engraving is symbolic, not just ornamental. I recall Jens, looking up your 'fish' katar, and finding a meaning. I do not recall it now in sufficient detail to write it here, I may make a mistake. It is the same with the peacock, and the Yali. It appears these Met katars are all from Tanjore??

26th September 2015, 04:32 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I believe the fish was the first incarnation of Vishnu .

26th September 2015, 04:53 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Eric, Thank you for showing these quite fantastic katar side guards and the addtional museum texts. Do you agree with all the downloaded museum texts here and on your homepage? I do however fail to see, how these pictures and the museum texts brings us any closer to getting an answer to the question - the development of the katar. Richard, Yes the symbolism is there, and in many other places as well. The fish - Matsya is said to be the first avatar of Vishnu, as he saved the first man from drowning by making himself a fish. It is also used in the coat of armes of Oudh. It was highly appresiated when a golden fish on a pool was given by the Mugahal emperor to someone of destinction. The peacock, besides from being a royal bird, is connected to Dugra, but also to Murugan the god of war, and the commander-in-chief of the gods. To this comes that several of the animals and the plants used for decoration can have many different meanings, depending from where in India they are used. Jens

26th September 2015, 09:49 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	One other thing that just came to mind is, that the katars shown in Hamza all have relatively short side guards - Hamza was made in mid 16th century. In Elgoods new book Arms and Armour, at the Jaiput Court, he shows on page 80-81 an all steel katar, without any decoration, being 93.5 cm long with a blade of 48 cm. Dated to late 16th or 17th century. Maybe this does not have to mean much, as when the katar was fully developed, there would still be some who would want to make 'new' forms.