The development of the Indian katar

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Staying with the Metropolitan museum where there are about 350 exhibits of Katar on show.

Ibrahiim, The Met does have one of the largest and most diverse collections of katar in the world. My records show that there are around 81 katars listed in their collection, 63 of which can be viewed online, and 4 are on display, the Met has not taken to time to photograph around 18 katar. Here is a link to every katar that has been photographed and is online in the Mets collection, these photos can not be seen on the Mets web site as they have been cropped and edited with many new extrordinary close up views of decorations, scabbard tips, etc, many high resolution images that can be clicked on for a detailed view.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ibrahiim, The Met does have one of the largest and most diverse collections of katar in the world. My records show that there are around 81 katars listed in their collection, 63 of which can be viewed online, and 4 are on display, the Met has not taken to time to photograph around 18 katar. Here is a link to every katar that has been photographed and is online in the Mets collection, these photos can not be seen on the Mets web site as they have been cropped and edited with many new extrordinary close up views of decorations, scabbard tips, etc, many high resolution images that can be clicked on for a detailed view.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

Salaams estcrh... The set up shown at reference above is staggering ! I note how many European blades are converted into Katar. I have read earlier that the older style display a sort of dagger Basket to protect the hand (presumably with gauntlet ) and that is one way of noting the older age...

I previously indicated a Kerala style used in an ancient martial form...and wondered if that may also yeild clues. Meanwhile I am trying to download off Pinterest with not a lot of success....

Ah I think I have it sorted ~ Here are some Katar Hilts ...Clearly diamond and precious stone was added to enhance court katars for VIP/Royalty...The other "morphed style" is the multiple blade two or more spikes...Also shown is the odd variant which fits into a second identical weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim and estcrh,
Thank you for the pictures of katars, of which many are very interesting.
However, personallly I find that such pictures should not stand alone, but be followed by some text explaning abut the age and from where in India the katars come/origin. This way others can lear from the look at a katar how old it is and from where in India it comes.
If only picture are shown and no text to follow, the reader does not get an idea of the development of the katar.

Sultans of the South. Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687. MET, 2011.
This is a book with many interesting articles like one by Robert Elgood: Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. Another article which I will highly recommend is Richard M. Eaton's A Social and Historical Introduction to the Deccan, 1323-1687. This article tells on eight pages about the different influences made upond Deccan from places like Turky, Persia, Mongols and several others, and it gives a relativly good background for understanding how Deccan art developed under the different influences.

Ian,
The following is a quote from the article mentioned above. Maybe it can help when it comes to the language in which the stones are inscribed.
"As early as 1535 Bijapur switched the language of its revenue and Judical accounts from Persian to Marathi; Golconda would do the same with Telugu". I dont know if it will help, as Gujarat could have switched to a third language, but there seem to have been a change of language at the time.

The katar shown is Nayak, from Tanjore or Madurai. 16th to early 17th century. Length 51 cm. Length of blade 33 cm.

Jens

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim and estcrh,
Thank you for the pictures of katars, of which many are very interesting.
However, personallly I find that such pictures should not stand alone, but be followed by some text explaning abut the age and from where in India the katars come/origin. This way others can lear from the look at a katar how old it is and from where in India it comes.
If only picture are shown and no text to follow, the reader does not get an idea of the development of the katar.

Jens, all of the edited photos from the Met collection on pinterest have the original description attached to the photo, it is nice having some additional info besides a photo, people posting images would just need to include it when they repost. Also on that particular board all of the katar are numbered which is helpful as many are quite similar.

To me it looks like these particular katar could have come from the same workshop/school, the details are amazing. I am not sure how this type of work was passed down in Indian, in Japan for example certain styles were called schools and they produced workmanship that you can recognise even today.


https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

High resolution image.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...948e7e1991.jpg

Indian katars from the collection of the Met Museum, 16th to 17th century, side bar detail views, showing various geometric designs, foliage, birds, fish and yali's (leogryphs), from Thanjavur (formerly Tanjore) in South India. Left to right top, katars #37, #14, #28, #26, #53, #10, #22, #19 Left to right bottom, #44, #43, #47, #38, #39, #27, #25, #18

[Pukka Bundook]

What is so fascinating about these Southern katars, is that the engraving is symbolic, not just ornamental.
I recall Jens, looking up your 'fish' katar, and finding a meaning.
I do not recall it now in sufficient detail to write it here, I may make a mistake.

It is the same with the peacock, and the Yali.
It appears these Met katars are all from Tanjore??

[Rick]

I believe the fish was the first incarnation of Vishnu .

[Jens Nordlunde]

Eric,
Thank you for showing these quite fantastic katar side guards and the addtional museum texts. Do you agree with all the downloaded museum texts here and on your homepage?
I do however fail to see, how these pictures and the museum texts brings us any closer to getting an answer to the question - the development of the katar.

Richard,
Yes the symbolism is there, and in many other places as well.
The fish - Matsya is said to be the first avatar of Vishnu, as he saved the first man from drowning by making himself a fish. It is also used in the coat of armes of Oudh. It was highly appresiated when a golden fish on a pool was given by the Mugahal emperor to someone of destinction.
The peacock, besides from being a royal bird, is connected to Dugra, but also to Murugan the god of war, and the commander-in-chief of the gods.
To this comes that several of the animals and the plants used for decoration can have many different meanings, depending from where in India they are used.

Jens

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahiim and estcrh,
Thank you for the pictures of katars, of which many are very interesting.
However, personallly I find that such pictures should not stand alone, but be followed by some text explaning abut the age and from where in India the katars come/origin. This way others can lear from the look at a katar how old it is and from where in India it comes.
If only picture are shown and no text to follow, the reader does not get an idea of the development of the katar.

Sultans of the South. Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687. MET, 2011.
This is a book with many interesting articles like one by Robert Elgood: Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. Another article which I will highly recommend is Richard M. Eaton's A Social and Historical Introduction to the Deccan, 1323-1687. This article tells on eight pages about the different influences made upond Deccan from places like Turky, Persia, Mongols and several others, and it gives a relativly good background for understanding how Deccan art developed under the different influences.

Ian,
The following is a quote from the article mentioned above. Maybe it can help when it comes to the language in which the stones are inscribed.
"As early as 1535 Bijapur switched the language of its revenue and Judical accounts from Persian to Marathi; Golconda would do the same with Telugu". I dont know if it will help, as Gujarat could have switched to a third language, but there seem to have been a change of language at the time.

The katar shown is Nayak, from Tanjore or Madurai. 16th to early 17th century. Length 51 cm. Length of blade 33 cm.

Jens

Salaams Jens, I rather think the same ...however, there is time to develop the thread with lots of detail especially from learned people such as yourself. I do, however, consider a picture to be worth 1000 words occasionally. At the same time the inclusion of Moghul and Rajastani artwork showing Katar is in itself documentary proof of the age of certain styles and should be viewed in that context...That sort of research is hugely time consuming but I believe beneficial to the overall picture.. By nature a thread is fragmentary and built from a host of tiny pieces of information. The jigsaw may never be complete but with the right steering by those who are expert in the field I think a decent team job is often achieved.

Getting the right blend of content into a post is never easy...especially when one is also learning as well as posting. I thought it important to gather before Forum a much larger collection thus I turned to the Met collection to thicken the volume of weapons...so that an informed assessment could be better made. Note that before I unfurled all those different styles we only had about 6 examples on thread.

What I find interesting about this particular weapon is that the earlier type have the huge, often intricate handguard....I wondered if it was in some way a relative to the Pata Swords however at #4 that seems to be rather remote..or unlikely except for the earlier note "The gauntlet-sword or pata was developed from the katar, according to Middle Ages researcher Tobias Capewell".

As the weapon spread throughout the region it became something of a status symbol, much like the Southeast Asian kris or the Japanese katana.

The British involvement in the East Indies Company period and the Raj had a distinct impression on Katar with many blades being from British swords and easier to date.. Late oddeties like the pistol Katar combinations can be dated to early to mid 19th C. The ancient martial style (kalaripayattu) Kerela points to a diverse application and possibly an earlier development.

Other than that I am learning like everyone else but will try my best to include some definition and description as we roll forward.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I note from readtiger.com an interesting weapon description

Quote"Daggers and knives.

These were of various shapes and kinds, each with a separate name.

Name Description
Katara or Katari A lightweight thrusting knife similar to a poignard and peculiar to India. Made with a hilt whose two branches extended along the arm so as to protect the hand and part of the arm, this weapon had a thick blade with two cutting edges having a breadth of 3 inches (76 mm) at the hilt and a solid point 1 inch (25 mm) wide. The blade could not be bent and was so stiff that nothing but a cuirass could stop it. The hilt had a cross-bar at right angles to the blade, by which the weapon was grasped such that it could only be used for a forward thrust. Some were slightly curved whilst others resembled a fork or were two-bladed. Blades were of various patterns with a length that varied from 9 to 17.5 inches (230 to 440 mm). Push dagger Deccan and Hindustan
Jamadhar This had the same handle as a katara but with a broad and straight blade, while the katara blade could be either straight or curved. The jamadhar katari had a straight blade and a handle held in the same way as a table-knife or sword".Unquote.

In addition for more detail on style by picture see http://mys.yoursearch.me/images/?cat...%20dagger&p=13

The picture below is from the Moghul Period.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I thought I had seen some stunning collections of daggers...until I opened this https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...-short-swords/ ..... Not only does this display lead the reader around the most magnificent daggers available...but it then shows Katar down the ages including the important mid and late 16th C ...from the Vijayanagara Empire.

In a previous post I noted that The katar originated in southern India where its original name was kattari before being altered to katara (romanized as "katar" by the British) in the north. The earliest forms occur in the medieval Vijayanagara Empire. Katar dating back to this period often had a leaf- or shell-like knuckle-guard to protect the back of the hand, but this was discarded by the later half of the 17th century.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all,

Probably the most important Katar information ever revealed to Forum appears on our own pages yet incredibly not yet upon this thread...til now. ..Please see... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10022

See picture below from Katars from Seshagirirayar Mandapa Ranganatha Temple, Srirangam..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hello Ibrahiim,
Thank you for your mails, but unfortunately the thread has taken quite another turn than I had hoped for.
My fault as I, from the start, should have made clear in which direction I would like the thread to move.
All the picture from you and estcrh can not be used, if you are looking for a development/research of the katar.
Posting a lot of katar pictures without any text makes the reader/viewer loos any overview he may have had. Even if/when text had been added it is likely to be museum text, and we know that museum text can be correct, but we also know that it is not always so.
I had hoped for a katar at a time, a few additional comments to any picture/text, to know in which catagory to place the picture, and to see if we agreed that the text was correct.
At the moment ther are so many katar shown, without any comemnts, that it does not make any sence to taake up my original idea, so I will suggest that the thread is used to show your katars.
Jens