The development of the Indian katar

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ian,
Maybe someone on this forum can help you to find out which language it is http://forum.wordreference.com/forum...-languages.99/
Jens

[Emanuel]

Thank you Jens, I just ordered the book

For additional pictorial evidence, I suggest that everyone peruse the reproductions so helpfully made available on the Wikipedia media commons for a variety of Indian illustrated manuscripts.

The majority appear to me 16th century and later, but perhaps there are some earlier ones that may include depictions of jamadhars.

Emanuel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Emanuel,
You are right, that the miniatures are a very good source, but many of the early ones, if you can find them, dont show any weapons.
Like the very early travellers comming to India saw weapons they had never seen before, but they did not describe them, and they did not draw them - a pity.
The very early temples is a good place to start, as long as they were not ruined during the many wars between the HIndu's and the Muslim's.
In some cases you as a collector will have to make the choice, do you want the weapon, or do you want the book, which can give you an insight into how the world was at the time.
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

It is wonderful to see this thread advancing, and thanks Ian, Fernando and Emanuel for the great additions and images of iconography pertinent to our discussion.

Jens, I must be more careful in my wordings, as I know full well that the katar began in southern regions, I learned that from you many years ago so I must have misspoken suggesting Rajput origins. It does seem that the Rajputs along with the diffusion of these distinctive daggers throughout India, of course used them most notably, but not until 16th c.

Thank you again for responding on my ideas on the use of the carvings in monuments and temples, friezes etc. as benchmarks to establish the timeline for these weapons. It is indeed most unfortunate that so many have been destroyed or lost to natural deterioration, but it seems that the number of archaeological sites is considerable so there is still hope that something more will turn up. I know that you are always vigilant in watching for obscure resources and references with these........and hopefully as more of join in looking for these we might find key examples further,

Ibrahiim, thank you for adding the online data which often turns up in these searches. These references have of course a mixture of valid and pertinent data combined with some unspecified in source material, but all serves as a good benchmark toward comprehensive perspective on these studies.

The very innovative weapons such as firearms in edged weapons in India are fascinating , and follow these same kinds of combination arms which are often seen in European context. It seems these are in most cases more one off type weapons created to impress the noble and wealthy patrons of armourers, and not necessarily regularly produced and issued weapons.

Getting back to the katar, we seem to have exhausted most early sources and artistic representations in the Indian context, however the search goes on. Possibly other narratives from those in other cultures (we already have Arab accounts from ibn Battuta) such as Persian , Chinese or other might have observations or descriptions of these in early context.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I add..an unusual little postage stamp. The Katar is from http://islamic-arts.org/2012/arms-an...islamic-world/

Description;Quote" A KOFTGARI KATAR AND SCABBARD, INDIA, CIRCA 18TH CENTURY.
The steel blade fullered with swollen tip, hilt with double grip and decorated throughout with gold overlaid inscriptions and floral motifs, the scabbard with chape decorated ensuite". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Staying with the Metropolitan museum where there are about 350 exhibits of Katar on show...I have a number to display which in some cases are very diversified as weapons with not only curved blades but multiple blades as well...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

and

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Staying with the Metropolitan museum where there are about 350 exhibits of Katar on show.

Ibrahiim, The Met does have one of the largest and most diverse collections of katar in the world. My records show that there are around 81 katars listed in their collection, 63 of which can be viewed online, and 4 are on display, the Met has not taken to time to photograph around 18 katar. Here is a link to every katar that has been photographed and is online in the Mets collection, these photos can not be seen on the Mets web site as they have been cropped and edited with many new extrordinary close up views of decorations, scabbard tips, etc, many high resolution images that can be clicked on for a detailed view.

https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is wonderful to see this thread advancing, and thanks Ian, Fernando and Emanuel for the great additions and images of iconography pertinent to our discussion.

Jens, I must be more careful in my wordings, as I know full well that the katar began in southern regions, I learned that from you many years ago so I must have misspoken suggesting Rajput origins. It does seem that the Rajputs along with the diffusion of these distinctive daggers throughout India, of course used them most notably, but not until 16th c.

Thank you again for responding on my ideas on the use of the carvings in monuments and temples, friezes etc. as benchmarks to establish the timeline for these weapons. It is indeed most unfortunate that so many have been destroyed or lost to natural deterioration, but it seems that the number of archaeological sites is considerable so there is still hope that something more will turn up. I know that you are always vigilant in watching for obscure resources and references with these........and hopefully as more of join in looking for these we might find key examples further,

Ibrahiim, thank you for adding the online data which often turns up in these searches. These references have of course a mixture of valid and pertinent data combined with some unspecified in source material, but all serves as a good benchmark toward comprehensive perspective on these studies.

The very innovative weapons such as firearms in edged weapons in India are fascinating , and follow these same kinds of combination arms which are often seen in European context. It seems these are in most cases more one off type weapons created to impress the noble and wealthy patrons of armourers, and not necessarily regularly produced and issued weapons.

Getting back to the katar, we seem to have exhausted most early sources and artistic representations in the Indian context, however the search goes on. Possibly other narratives from those in other cultures (we already have Arab accounts from ibn Battuta) such as Persian , Chinese or other might have observations or descriptions of these in early context.

Salaams Jim, Indeed the system seems to have been used in certain parts of India and by the famous warlike Rajput warriors... but... it is also a Kerala weapon and used in their ancient martial style (kalaripayattu) Usually weapons in old martial systems go back a very long way...It may not always be the case but it may be a clue to the weapon being much older than we may initially have thought..and perhaps a clue to its origin?

..Please see https://www.keralatourism.org/video-...rtial-art/246/ for a demonstration that includes this weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It seems as if the Katar was worn at court as a badge of office . Moghul and Rajastani paintings often record the wearing of such weapons. I thought I would develop that here...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In have to agree that Pinterest has indeed some magnificent pictures of Katar and as such I recommend this website to Forum on this subject Katars...https://www.pinterest.com/pin/490259109409465483/