New acquisition; Sundang for comment

CharlesS · 15th September 2015, 01:25 PM

Ian,

Good thread and some good points.

Regarding Artzi's example, it is also pretty clear that the grip cording there is much later and not in the generally seen traditional Moro style.

Your comments regarding the silver works made me immediately revisit my comments regarding the grip cording on drak2k's example. I tried to enlarge the pics but could not. I had assumed that what I saw there was thin, thread-like cording, but now I am not so sure it is cording at all....we will need a confirmation or input from drak2k. I saw...what I originally thought was...worn broken cording. Upon a secondary look, I think it may be cloth or paper that has been tinted or painted black to simulate the cording that would be there. Note the breaks are too clean, and there are no loose single cords!!!

To me this works towards confirming your idea regarding the hilt, and it has taught me a good lesson on not taking quick glances too seriously in lieu of much closer inspection!

Sajen · 15th September 2015, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Your comments regarding the silver works made me immediately revisit my comments regarding the grip cording on drak2k's example. I tried to enlarge the pics but could not. I had assumed that what I saw there was thin, thread-like cording, but now I am not so sure it is cording at all....we will need a confirmation or input from drak2k. I saw...what I originally thought was...worn broken cording. Upon a secondary look, I think it may be cloth or paper that has been tinted or painted black to simulate the cording that would be there. Note the breaks are too clean, and there are no loose single cords!!!(

Hello Charles,

have a look to post #6 & #8, I've asked drac2k already about this.

Regards,
Detlef

David · 15th September 2015, 03:47 PM

Ian, i would not necessarily argue with you that the silver rings on Drac's hilt are a more recent addition, however, i will question whether the semicircular marks, sinuous vines, etc., and scalloped edges to the bands are only something to be found post 1970s on Moro weapons. Of course, i can't speak for this kris beyond 1980 when i purchased it, but i pulled it out of an old antique mall in a barn in New Hampshire where it had obviously been languishing for quite some time. The silverwork is of a higher quality than the examples shown here and i believe that quality of the silver itself is higher as well. The asang-asang is suassa. The cording was gone and the red stuff was something i added at the time (this was my first and i was completely ignorant of what type of cording to use and never got around to changing it) and whatever was attached to the pommel was long gone.
While i'm not sure i can immediately find another kris as an example these two gunongs that are certainly from around 1900 also use semicircular marks and scalloped edges, so it is clearly a design element that was found in Moro weapons long before 1970.

CharlesS · 15th September 2015, 05:38 PM

David,

To my eyes(clearly failing...see above!) the quality of the silver work on the kriss you have shown us is quite different and in a different league quality-wise than drak2k's. Yours l believe in superior both in workmanship and actual silver quality(content).

Battara is the guy to better comment on that.

David · 15th September 2015, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

David,

To my eyes(clearly failing...see above!) the quality of the silver work on the kriss you have shown us is quite different and in a different league quality-wise than drak2k's. Yours l believe in superior both in workmanship and actual silver quality(content).

Battara is the guy to better comment on that.

Yes Charles, i completely agree. The quality is indeed much higher and the silver is a higher quality as well. I posted it in response to Ian's suggestion that "semicircular marks, sinuous vines, etc., and scalloped edges to the bands" was something introduced to Moro weapons in the 1950s. I do agree with Ian that Drac's example probably had these silver bands added later in the life of the weapon, but i believe these motifs and design elements have been used in Moro work since at least 1900.

David · 15th September 2015, 06:27 PM

Here is another old kris hilt with silver bands that displays some elements of semi-circles and what might be described as scalloped edges. Please forgive the bad photography of a quick iPhone photo.

Battara · 16th September 2015, 01:00 AM

Hi folks.

Since my name was used (CharlesS) and I have been watching this excellent thread, I'll give my thoughts:

The semi-circular motifs, okir vines, etc. are very old and I have seen them in documented and provenanced things, including bladed weaponry. That being said, I agree with Ian in that drac2k's example of silver work is very recent. Here are some of the reasons I suggest this:

1.The mounts look to me (based on the pictures) to be nickel silver (nickel/copper content without any silver), or at most, a form of silver/copper alloy lower than coin silver (- 80%). I can tell by the color and patina.

2. The metal used for these mounts appear very thick. High grade silver is expensive and thus would be thinner. You see earlier pieces with this kind of thinner silver.

3. As work goes, the work on the bands appear very flat. I am used to seeing on older documented and provenanced pieces a more 3D effect that occurs with chasing/stamping work done on thinner silver, which gives more than thicker nickel silver.

4. The style of the work done is not as tight nor detailed as that of earlier work, like that of the turn of the 20th century and earlier. Earlier Maranao and Maguindanao okir silver work is more detailed and leaves less open spaces and untouched areas. Thus earlier work seems to be more complex, full, and tight. I have noticed later work from Marawi City (where most of the work now originates) seems simpler and more open.

These observations apply to gold and gold plate as well.

Also I have been studying these forms for years so that I can replicate them in the old styles to match old pieces.

I hope this helps.

15th September 2015, 03:47 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Ian, i would not necessarily argue with you that the silver rings on Drac's hilt are a more recent addition, however, i will question whether the semicircular marks, sinuous vines, etc., and scalloped edges to the bands are only something to be found post 1970s on Moro weapons. Of course, i can't speak for this kris beyond 1980 when i purchased it, but i pulled it out of an old antique mall in a barn in New Hampshire where it had obviously been languishing for quite some time. The silverwork is of a higher quality than the examples shown here and i believe that quality of the silver itself is higher as well. The asang-asang is suassa. The cording was gone and the red stuff was something i added at the time (this was my first and i was completely ignorant of what type of cording to use and never got around to changing it) and whatever was attached to the pommel was long gone. While i'm not sure i can immediately find another kris as an example these two gunongs that are certainly from around 1900 also use semicircular marks and scalloped edges, so it is clearly a design element that was found in Moro weapons long before 1970. Attached Images

15th September 2015, 01:25 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Ian, Good thread and some good points. Regarding Artzi's example, it is also pretty clear that the grip cording there is much later and not in the generally seen traditional Moro style. Your comments regarding the silver works made me immediately revisit my comments regarding the grip cording on drak2k's example. I tried to enlarge the pics but could not. I had assumed that what I saw there was thin, thread-like cording, but now I am not so sure it is cording at all....we will need a confirmation or input from drak2k. I saw...what I originally thought was...worn broken cording. Upon a secondary look, I think it may be cloth or paper that has been tinted or painted black to simulate the cording that would be there. Note the breaks are too clean, and there are no loose single cords!!! To me this works towards confirming your idea regarding the hilt, and it has taught me a good lesson on not taking quick glances too seriously in lieu of much closer inspection!

15th September 2015, 05:38 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	David, To my eyes(clearly failing...see above!) the quality of the silver work on the kriss you have shown us is quite different and in a different league quality-wise than drak2k's. Yours l believe in superior both in workmanship and actual silver quality(content). Battara is the guy to better comment on that.

15th September 2015, 06:27 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Here is another old kris hilt with silver bands that displays some elements of semi-circles and what might be described as scalloped edges. Please forgive the bad photography of a quick iPhone photo. Attached Images

16th September 2015, 01:00 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Hi folks. Since my name was used (CharlesS) and I have been watching this excellent thread, I'll give my thoughts: The semi-circular motifs, okir vines, etc. are very old and I have seen them in documented and provenanced things, including bladed weaponry. That being said, I agree with Ian in that drac2k's example of silver work is very recent. Here are some of the reasons I suggest this: 1.The mounts look to me (based on the pictures) to be nickel silver (nickel/copper content without any silver), or at most, a form of silver/copper alloy lower than coin silver (- 80%). I can tell by the color and patina. 2. The metal used for these mounts appear very thick. High grade silver is expensive and thus would be thinner. You see earlier pieces with this kind of thinner silver. 3. As work goes, the work on the bands appear very flat. I am used to seeing on older documented and provenanced pieces a more 3D effect that occurs with chasing/stamping work done on thinner silver, which gives more than thicker nickel silver. 4. The style of the work done is not as tight nor detailed as that of earlier work, like that of the turn of the 20th century and earlier. Earlier Maranao and Maguindanao okir silver work is more detailed and leaves less open spaces and untouched areas. Thus earlier work seems to be more complex, full, and tight. I have noticed later work from Marawi City (where most of the work now originates) seems simpler and more open. These observations apply to gold and gold plate as well. Also I have been studying these forms for years so that I can replicate them in the old styles to match old pieces. I hope this helps.