New acquisition; Sundang for comment

David · 14th September 2015, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

Thanks, the sword is "wicked sharp." Thank you Sajen for the advice on how to etch, however I think that I'll experiment with something else before tackling this one.
Wow , looking at your sword, almost makes me want to try !

It is really as simple as Detlef suggests Drac. Working with vinegar you really can't screw it up. It is too weak an acid to do any damage to the sword and if you don't like the results you can simply buff it off with fine grade steel wool.

kino · 15th September 2015, 01:02 AM

I would make sure the silver inlays are flush and firm within the channels, you don't want to risk snagging a stray with a steel wool thread and pulling it out.

DaveS · 15th September 2015, 04:48 AM

A very nice complete kris. I think rsword is right, it seems to have a twist-core down the center. Detlef is also right in that you can't hurt a blade using just warm vinegar. If you don't like the results just give the blade a light polish and it will look like the same as before, you can't really hurt it.....Dave

Ian · 15th September 2015, 06:15 AM

Guys:

The silver work of drac2K's kris is 20th C Maranao work from the Lake Lanao region of Mindanao, and almost certainly from the second half of the 20th C. My source for this information is a Filipino antique dealer in Ermita, Manila by the name of Mr. Ven Magbuhos whom some of you may have dealt with. Mr. Ven has been in the antique business there for 40+ years and specializes in Moro artifacts, including kris and other edged weapons. He states that the type of silver engraving (with semicircular marks, sinuous vines, etc., and scalloped edges to the bands) on the kris that started this thread appeared in the 1950s and became more common in the 1970s. Its presence on the hilts of kris and barung greatly increased in the 1990s as Maranao craftsmen ramped up their output to meet the demand of tourists and collectors. He has personally seen hundreds of examples of this kind of silver work on kris, gunong, and barung coming out of the Maranao area in the last 20-30 years. He has seen much that dates from this period but nothing that could be dated reliably before about 1950. He specifically notes that old blades are often "dressed up" with newer, silver ornamented hilts to enhance their value and increase profit.

So if this is a late 19th C or early 20th C blade, then we need to acknowledge that the hilt decorations are a later feature. The underlying hilt may well be original, with just the silver work being added later. Incidentally, the pinning of the silver plates to the hilt with small nails is uncommon, and is again more likely to occur on late 20th C examples.

I don't think this later embellishment detracts from the sword. After all, these are changes made within the culture of origin and in keeping with Maranao styles. The kris remains genuinely Moro.

Just to do a little more research on this style, I went to Artzi Yarom's web site and examined the 95 or so Moro kris that he has sold. I found only one that resembles the subject of this thread (pictures posted below). Again, the silver work on the hilt is pristine although showing a little age. Note the perfectly preserved scalloped edge of the band adjacent to the pommel. This is an area where one would expect to see small distortions or dings to the soft silver with use (certainly it is an area where silver-hilted dha often show incidental damage). There is no damage here even though the adjacent wooden pommel shows some scuffs, cracking and other age-related trauma. This one also seems to have been redressed since it was made.

Lastly, there is one example of a similar hilt in Robert Cato's book, Moro Swords--see p. 60 and Fig. 47 (left example). This appears to be a Maranao kris, but unfortunately the hilt is not shown in close detail.

Ian.

drac2k · 15th September 2015, 12:26 PM

Gentlemen, in regards to the etching , I will consider it .
In regards to the silver dressings on the hilt, it could very well be later work, to enhance the piece for sale, however I'm curious as to what is missing or why the job was only half done ? It doesn't appear that the sword has suffered any great trauma so how would a half dressed hilt be more commercially viable?
Ian, I think you made a very good argument and supported it very well with your documentation and I have no problem accepting it

CharlesS · 15th September 2015, 01:25 PM

Ian,

Good thread and some good points.

Regarding Artzi's example, it is also pretty clear that the grip cording there is much later and not in the generally seen traditional Moro style.

Your comments regarding the silver works made me immediately revisit my comments regarding the grip cording on drak2k's example. I tried to enlarge the pics but could not. I had assumed that what I saw there was thin, thread-like cording, but now I am not so sure it is cording at all....we will need a confirmation or input from drak2k. I saw...what I originally thought was...worn broken cording. Upon a secondary look, I think it may be cloth or paper that has been tinted or painted black to simulate the cording that would be there. Note the breaks are too clean, and there are no loose single cords!!!

To me this works towards confirming your idea regarding the hilt, and it has taught me a good lesson on not taking quick glances too seriously in lieu of much closer inspection!

Sajen · 15th September 2015, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Your comments regarding the silver works made me immediately revisit my comments regarding the grip cording on drak2k's example. I tried to enlarge the pics but could not. I had assumed that what I saw there was thin, thread-like cording, but now I am not so sure it is cording at all....we will need a confirmation or input from drak2k. I saw...what I originally thought was...worn broken cording. Upon a secondary look, I think it may be cloth or paper that has been tinted or painted black to simulate the cording that would be there. Note the breaks are too clean, and there are no loose single cords!!!(

Hello Charles,

have a look to post #6 & #8, I've asked drac2k already about this.

Regards,
Detlef

David · 15th September 2015, 03:47 PM

Ian, i would not necessarily argue with you that the silver rings on Drac's hilt are a more recent addition, however, i will question whether the semicircular marks, sinuous vines, etc., and scalloped edges to the bands are only something to be found post 1970s on Moro weapons. Of course, i can't speak for this kris beyond 1980 when i purchased it, but i pulled it out of an old antique mall in a barn in New Hampshire where it had obviously been languishing for quite some time. The silverwork is of a higher quality than the examples shown here and i believe that quality of the silver itself is higher as well. The asang-asang is suassa. The cording was gone and the red stuff was something i added at the time (this was my first and i was completely ignorant of what type of cording to use and never got around to changing it) and whatever was attached to the pommel was long gone.
While i'm not sure i can immediately find another kris as an example these two gunongs that are certainly from around 1900 also use semicircular marks and scalloped edges, so it is clearly a design element that was found in Moro weapons long before 1970.

15th September 2015, 04:48 AM	#3
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	sundang for comment A very nice complete kris. I think rsword is right, it seems to have a twist-core down the center. Detlef is also right in that you can't hurt a blade using just warm vinegar. If you don't like the results just give the blade a light polish and it will look like the same as before, you can't really hurt it.....Dave

15th September 2015, 06:15 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Guys: The silver work of drac2K's kris is 20th C Maranao work from the Lake Lanao region of Mindanao, and almost certainly from the second half of the 20th C. My source for this information is a Filipino antique dealer in Ermita, Manila by the name of Mr. Ven Magbuhos whom some of you may have dealt with. Mr. Ven has been in the antique business there for 40+ years and specializes in Moro artifacts, including kris and other edged weapons. He states that the type of silver engraving (with semicircular marks, sinuous vines, etc., and scalloped edges to the bands) on the kris that started this thread appeared in the 1950s and became more common in the 1970s. Its presence on the hilts of kris and barung greatly increased in the 1990s as Maranao craftsmen ramped up their output to meet the demand of tourists and collectors. He has personally seen hundreds of examples of this kind of silver work on kris, gunong, and barung coming out of the Maranao area in the last 20-30 years. He has seen much that dates from this period but nothing that could be dated reliably before about 1950. He specifically notes that old blades are often "dressed up" with newer, silver ornamented hilts to enhance their value and increase profit. So if this is a late 19th C or early 20th C blade, then we need to acknowledge that the hilt decorations are a later feature. The underlying hilt may well be original, with just the silver work being added later. Incidentally, the pinning of the silver plates to the hilt with small nails is uncommon, and is again more likely to occur on late 20th C examples. I don't think this later embellishment detracts from the sword. After all, these are changes made within the culture of origin and in keeping with Maranao styles. The kris remains genuinely Moro. Just to do a little more research on this style, I went to Artzi Yarom's web site and examined the 95 or so Moro kris that he has sold. I found only one that resembles the subject of this thread (pictures posted below). Again, the silver work on the hilt is pristine although showing a little age. Note the perfectly preserved scalloped edge of the band adjacent to the pommel. This is an area where one would expect to see small distortions or dings to the soft silver with use (certainly it is an area where silver-hilted dha often show incidental damage). There is no damage here even though the adjacent wooden pommel shows some scuffs, cracking and other age-related trauma. This one also seems to have been redressed since it was made. Lastly, there is one example of a similar hilt in Robert Cato's book, Moro Swords--see p. 60 and Fig. 47 (left example). This appears to be a Maranao kris, but unfortunately the hilt is not shown in close detail. Ian. Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 15th September 2015 at 06:31 AM.

15th September 2015, 01:02 AM	#2
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,018	I would make sure the silver inlays are flush and firm within the channels, you don't want to risk snagging a stray with a steel wool thread and pulling it out.

15th September 2015, 12:26 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,255	Gentlemen, in regards to the etching , I will consider it . In regards to the silver dressings on the hilt, it could very well be later work, to enhance the piece for sale, however I'm curious as to what is missing or why the job was only half done ? It doesn't appear that the sword has suffered any great trauma so how would a half dressed hilt be more commercially viable? Ian, I think you made a very good argument and supported it very well with your documentation and I have no problem accepting it

15th September 2015, 01:25 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Ian, Good thread and some good points. Regarding Artzi's example, it is also pretty clear that the grip cording there is much later and not in the generally seen traditional Moro style. Your comments regarding the silver works made me immediately revisit my comments regarding the grip cording on drak2k's example. I tried to enlarge the pics but could not. I had assumed that what I saw there was thin, thread-like cording, but now I am not so sure it is cording at all....we will need a confirmation or input from drak2k. I saw...what I originally thought was...worn broken cording. Upon a secondary look, I think it may be cloth or paper that has been tinted or painted black to simulate the cording that would be there. Note the breaks are too clean, and there are no loose single cords!!! To me this works towards confirming your idea regarding the hilt, and it has taught me a good lesson on not taking quick glances too seriously in lieu of much closer inspection!

15th September 2015, 03:47 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Ian, i would not necessarily argue with you that the silver rings on Drac's hilt are a more recent addition, however, i will question whether the semicircular marks, sinuous vines, etc., and scalloped edges to the bands are only something to be found post 1970s on Moro weapons. Of course, i can't speak for this kris beyond 1980 when i purchased it, but i pulled it out of an old antique mall in a barn in New Hampshire where it had obviously been languishing for quite some time. The silverwork is of a higher quality than the examples shown here and i believe that quality of the silver itself is higher as well. The asang-asang is suassa. The cording was gone and the red stuff was something i added at the time (this was my first and i was completely ignorant of what type of cording to use and never got around to changing it) and whatever was attached to the pommel was long gone. While i'm not sure i can immediately find another kris as an example these two gunongs that are certainly from around 1900 also use semicircular marks and scalloped edges, so it is clearly a design element that was found in Moro weapons long before 1970. Attached Images