13th century sword mystery

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th August 2015, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Hello Ibrahiim

I think I post on the train of thought that a simple phrase the most likely translation we will find.

I agree with Lee on his impression that the sword is not unlikely to be of a later century. While Oakeshott lists this sword as a type X, it is truly as easily placed in a type XVI category, or even a tweener of a XIV, or XVII for that matter. I believe it is in Oakeshott's later book (Age of Chivalry) he starts to question his own earlier categorizing and dating. I'll be honest, I own only his first title and Records, on which all now seem to attribute "truth" to this particular sword. I look at this sword and see it easily 14th if not even 15th century work.

My own focus of swords is a mere few decades of early modern swords, and further narrowed to eagle pommel swords of the US market. As many times as types and origins of those have been pigeonholed, not just trends but reuse of favored styles often need reassessment.

As to prettier and emblazoned swords belonging to the rich and famous, of course. A peasant grade sword in England during the XIVth century could be had for a few weeks wages if a freeman. Also by that time, barrels of blades imported, manifested and registered and taxed in the port of London. So many arms and armour imported into England that there was concern and laws made restricting trade by the XVth century. In that regard, I see no great mystery that a sword found in an English river (inscribed or not) mirrors swords found on the continent.

Cheers

GC

Yes I agree it could be of a later century as detailed in my previous post in particular regarding the W detail...in paragraph 1 and 2 and I also line up with the possibility of it being linked to swords found on the continent in paragraph 3... noted in my previous post taken mainly from the website http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2015/08/can...ear-old-sword/

Hotspur · 30th August 2015, 07:54 PM

Yes, so we are agreeing with much of what is posted, reposted and reposted across the net this past month or so with the same links posted over and over.

Cheers

GC

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th August 2015, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Yes, so we are agreeing with much of what is posted, reposted and reposted across the net this past month or so with the same links posted over and over.

Cheers

GC

Oh which link was that ...I may have missed it?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th August 2015, 08:32 PM

Salaams all... Another sword comes to hand...or view at http://siberiantimes.com/science/cas...-the-terrible/

Members are urged to consider this one please.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st August 2015, 09:20 PM

The Sword of Ivan the Terrible or....?

Salaams all...On rereading Heraldic Symbols I am reminded of the shorthand nature of that entire structure but I am also inclined to use the same analogy on blade inscriptions... Mediaeval Shorthand. What I find amazing(and there are many amazing twists with these blades

) is that there appears to be a network; perhaps a monastic linkage across vast regions where it seems sword-makers possibly attached or part of the clergy moved with freedom practicing their art-form ..was this a way of funding a particular religious body?...was this done to fund religious visits/pilgrimages?...or was the work done in different countries and regions by sometimes the same craftsman purely a co incidental affair?...I doubt the latter.

Since I harp on about shorthand here is what the report at reference says about the script...

Quote"The main inscription reads: N[omine] M[atris] N[ostri] S[alva]t[ORis] Et[eRni] D[omini] S[alvatoRis] E[teRni], with an additional one on the same side of the blade saying C[hRis]t[us] Ih[esus] C[hRis]t[us]. This means:'In the name of the mother of our saviour eternal, eternal Lord and Saviour. Christ Jesus Christ.'

The inscription on the reverse side is harder to read, but the first word 'NOMENE' - clearly seen - helps reconstruct the rest as 'N[omine] O[mnipotentis]. M[ateR]. E[teRni] N[omin]e', which means 'In the name of the Almighty. The Mother of God. In the name of Eternal".Unquote.

Applying that key to the project sword here at #3 gives a similar string that will decode to illustrate a religious incantation or saying which you can all have a go at...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th September 2015, 07:17 PM

Another sword to consider from https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...19569857056750

Quote"Sword from Victoria & Albert Museum London, UK\1250-1300 England
Sword, the long double-edged blade constructed of two parallel pattern welded rods to give a shallow concave medial fuller which is decorated with an inlaid talismanic inscription in latten letters on both sides. The hilt no longer survives, only the tapering tang which is hammer welded to a globular, roughly hammered disc-shaped pommel with bevelled edges. The plain quillon is straight with circular section terminals flaring slightly outwards at the tips.
Place of Origin
England, Britain (made)
Date
1250-1300 (made)
Artist/maker
Unknown (production)
Materials and Techniques
Steel, pattern welded and inlaid with latten
Marks and inscriptions
'+N.C.R.O.X.W(?).R.E.F.-'
'+N E D A S E D N G R E D A-'
Dimensions
Length: 104.3 cm whole, Length: 16.3 cm hilt, Length: 88.0 cm blade, Width: 18.5 cm quillons, Depth: 3.8 cm pommel, Width: 5.8 cm top of blade, Weight: 0.94 kg
Object history note
This sword was found in Whittlesea Mere, Cambridgeshire, in the 1840s (in the same vicinity as the Ramsey Abbey incense boat M.269-1923). It was first loaned to the Museum in 1951 by Mr George H. Bird. The original lender has died and all attempts to contact the family have been unsuccessful. The sword was written on in 2002.
Historical context note
Swords have always been high status objects used as symbols of authority as well as for warfare and sport. Swords often accompanied a warrior to his grave. This style of sword derived from the broad straight swords of the Celts and Vikings, consisting of a long, two-sided blade balanced by a pronounced pommel and straight quillons (cross-bars on the hilt) to guard the hand, with a grip of wood bound with leather or cord. No trace of the grip on this sword remains, only the core steel tang reaching to the pommel.
The medieval sword was at first designed as a cutting weapon but by around 1300, when this sword was made, narrower, pointed blades emerge in order to pierce the new plate armours. The medieval knight used a shield or armour for defence so that swords were designed almost entirely for offence to be wielded one-handed on horseback. Longer grips emerged after 1250 so that the sword could be held with two hands in foot combat and the quillons started to curve towards the blade as a form of defence for catching an opponent's blade. The earlier wheel shaped pommels were also replaced conical or oval ones.
Swords are frequently portrayed in manuscripts making it possible to trace their evolution after about 1250. The armouries in Dresden and Vienna contain many medieval swords in excellent condition. Battlefields are a disappointing source for the discovery of swords implying that swords were highly prized and expensive.
Descriptive line
Sword with straight quillons and a wheel-shaped pommel, English, 1250-1300, recovered from Whittlesea Mere, Cambridgeshire in the 1840s". Unquote.

30th August 2015, 08:32 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all... Another sword comes to hand...or view at http://siberiantimes.com/science/cas...-the-terrible/ Members are urged to consider this one please. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 31st August 2015 at 07:42 PM.

31st August 2015, 09:20 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The Sword of Ivan the Terrible or....? Salaams all...On rereading Heraldic Symbols I am reminded of the shorthand nature of that entire structure but I am also inclined to use the same analogy on blade inscriptions... Mediaeval Shorthand. What I find amazing(and there are many amazing twists with these blades ) is that there appears to be a network; perhaps a monastic linkage across vast regions where it seems sword-makers possibly attached or part of the clergy moved with freedom practicing their art-form ..was this a way of funding a particular religious body?...was this done to fund religious visits/pilgrimages?...or was the work done in different countries and regions by sometimes the same craftsman purely a co incidental affair?...I doubt the latter. Since I harp on about shorthand here is what the report at reference says about the script... Quote"The main inscription reads: N[omine] M[atris] N[ostri] S[alva]t[ORis] Et[eRni] D[omini] S[alvatoRis] E[teRni], with an additional one on the same side of the blade saying C[hRis]t[us] Ih[esus] C[hRis]t[us]. This means:'In the name of the mother of our saviour eternal, eternal Lord and Saviour. Christ Jesus Christ.' The inscription on the reverse side is harder to read, but the first word 'NOMENE' - clearly seen - helps reconstruct the rest as 'N[omine] O[mnipotentis]. M[ateR]. E[teRni] N[omin]e', which means 'In the name of the Almighty. The Mother of God. In the name of Eternal".Unquote. Applying that key to the project sword here at #3 gives a similar string that will decode to illustrate a religious incantation or saying which you can all have a go at... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 31st August 2015 at 09:45 PM.

30th August 2015, 07:54 PM	#2
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	Yes, so we are agreeing with much of what is posted, reposted and reposted across the net this past month or so with the same links posted over and over. Cheers GC

16th September 2015, 07:17 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Another sword to consider from https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...19569857056750 Quote"Sword from Victoria & Albert Museum London, UK\1250-1300 England Sword, the long double-edged blade constructed of two parallel pattern welded rods to give a shallow concave medial fuller which is decorated with an inlaid talismanic inscription in latten letters on both sides. The hilt no longer survives, only the tapering tang which is hammer welded to a globular, roughly hammered disc-shaped pommel with bevelled edges. The plain quillon is straight with circular section terminals flaring slightly outwards at the tips. Place of Origin England, Britain (made) Date 1250-1300 (made) Artist/maker Unknown (production) Materials and Techniques Steel, pattern welded and inlaid with latten Marks and inscriptions '+N.C.R.O.X.W(?).R.E.F.-' '+N E D A S E D N G R E D A-' Dimensions Length: 104.3 cm whole, Length: 16.3 cm hilt, Length: 88.0 cm blade, Width: 18.5 cm quillons, Depth: 3.8 cm pommel, Width: 5.8 cm top of blade, Weight: 0.94 kg Object history note This sword was found in Whittlesea Mere, Cambridgeshire, in the 1840s (in the same vicinity as the Ramsey Abbey incense boat M.269-1923). It was first loaned to the Museum in 1951 by Mr George H. Bird. The original lender has died and all attempts to contact the family have been unsuccessful. The sword was written on in 2002. Historical context note Swords have always been high status objects used as symbols of authority as well as for warfare and sport. Swords often accompanied a warrior to his grave. This style of sword derived from the broad straight swords of the Celts and Vikings, consisting of a long, two-sided blade balanced by a pronounced pommel and straight quillons (cross-bars on the hilt) to guard the hand, with a grip of wood bound with leather or cord. No trace of the grip on this sword remains, only the core steel tang reaching to the pommel. The medieval sword was at first designed as a cutting weapon but by around 1300, when this sword was made, narrower, pointed blades emerge in order to pierce the new plate armours. The medieval knight used a shield or armour for defence so that swords were designed almost entirely for offence to be wielded one-handed on horseback. Longer grips emerged after 1250 so that the sword could be held with two hands in foot combat and the quillons started to curve towards the blade as a form of defence for catching an opponent's blade. The earlier wheel shaped pommels were also replaced conical or oval ones. Swords are frequently portrayed in manuscripts making it possible to trace their evolution after about 1250. The armouries in Dresden and Vienna contain many medieval swords in excellent condition. Battlefields are a disappointing source for the discovery of swords implying that swords were highly prized and expensive. Descriptive line Sword with straight quillons and a wheel-shaped pommel, English, 1250-1300, recovered from Whittlesea Mere, Cambridgeshire in the 1840s". Unquote.