Keris Betok?

rizramon · 29th December 2005, 12:51 PM

Hi guys , these are detail pic of my madura hulu.Well im a beginner so need u guys info.For the madura I love the craving & the pamor.For the betok...well i just keep it for my collection.

nechesh · 29th December 2005, 05:03 PM

Henk, i know similar discussions have taken place before, but why on Earth would you not consider the Madura keris "authentic"? The sheath carving certainly has little to do with traditional style Madurese wrongko of the, say. 19thC, but this style of carving IS very much in Madurese and i would accept it as a tradition piece for the late 20thC. I certainly wouldn't brand this a "tourist keris", it's just not an "old" keris. It is a decently executed blade, certainly not tourist junk. It is a modern keris for the modern keris collector. Why should we have to wait another hunderd years to accept that (you know....when it becomes old).

CharlesS · 29th December 2005, 05:15 PM

One thing for sure. If the Madurese scabbard and hilt is any indication, the art of fine wood carving is very much alive and well on the islands, even if in this case it's "too much".

nechesh · 29th December 2005, 06:18 PM

Agreed Charles, and even though this dress might me considered s bit "busy" it is very nicely executed and in line with Madurese carving style and motifs.
BTW, can someone explain the poll to me at the top of the page. What am i voting for exactly by picking #1 or #2?

Henk · 29th December 2005, 07:50 PM

Nechesh,

It certainly isn't my intention to take the pleasure away by fellow collectors.

I don't say anything about the blade than that it is a new blade. It certainly is a well executed blade and you can use it in comparing it with other blades to see the differences between old and new blades.
I don't have problems with new blades at all. In my collection I do have a few keris with new blades. Lovely and well made. I'm very glad that today still beautiful keris are made for us collectors to expand our collection.

Even the ukiran is no problem. As a matter of fact fitting perfectly on a maduran keris and a nice piece of carving.

But the scabbard is really too much. The "authenticity" is a matter of taste and taste is a personel matter. For me it is the scabbard that takes all the authenticity away from the entire piece. I know that the maduran carving is rich and well executed and I have no problems with new traditions. But I would prefer a more "traditionally" carved maduran scabbard for this piece.

In my opinion a keris in such a scabbard is made for export purposes only.
I would like to compare it with those famous KNIL keris. A real keris but dressed in a cheap scabbard and ukiran for the dutch soldiers to bring home as a souvenir. Those keris are still mentioned as the first tourist keris. Although I don't have such a keris in my collection, such a keris with that story should be a part of any keris collection. And maybe I have to get used to a more fancy madura dress of the late 20th century. But that's my problem, I'm rather traditional and old fashioned

nechesh · 29th December 2005, 10:17 PM

I understand what you are saying Henk, but you must admit this is fairly good carving. The carving on those old Dutch solider keris (which i agree are collectable for their place in history if nothing else) usually doesn't even approach this carving standard. I am not so certain one can be sure that this sheath was carved with only export in mind.
Welcome to the "new traditionalists"!

Mans · 30th December 2005, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Nechesh,
......
But the scabbard is really too much. The "authenticity" is a matter of taste and taste is a personel matter.

I'm 100% agree that the taste is a personal matter.
Also agree that Rizramon scabbard's is nice executed.

Just for warming this discussion, here I posted some of Madura wrangka's

1st and 2nd are new made / 3rd and 4th are old.
The same thing on all of the wrangka is the rich carved. It shown the part of Maduranese sparkling culture.

nechesh · 30th December 2005, 04:52 AM

I think the examples Mans posted show pretty clearly that Rizramon's Madurese dress is well within the bounds of traditional and authentic work from that area. No, you don't have to like it, but i still would maintain that there is nothing about this keris that insists that it would only be made for a foriegn market.

Mans · 30th December 2005, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

..... but i still would maintain that there is nothing about this keris that insists that it would only be made for a foriegn market.

Absolutely right Nech

So far, I never known the seller or keris shops who declare the keris just specifically for Foreign Market or Export Only

Henk · 30th December 2005, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mans

Absolutely right Nech

So far, I never known the seller or keris shops who declare the keris just specifically for Foreign Market or Export Only

I wouldn't declare either something else when I'm in business

.

Mans, The pictures of the three maduran keris are the maduran keris I mean. Rich carved but traditional madura. It's just my taste and i'm so glad that everybody agrees that that is personal

Would you show me a picture of the keris like those three maduran? The image is better to compare then.

And maybe Nechesh gets me over the edge to the club of "new traditionalists", but it takes time to get used to it. But when the time is there i might get real enthiousiastic about the antiques of tomorrow.

View Poll Results: Keris Betok?
1	1	50.00%
2	1	50.00%
Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

29th December 2005, 12:51 PM	#1
rizramon Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 7	Madura's hulu Hi guys , these are detail pic of my madura hulu.Well im a beginner so need u guys info.For the madura I love the craving & the pamor.For the betok...well i just keep it for my collection. Attached Images

29th December 2005, 05:03 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Henk, i know similar discussions have taken place before, but why on Earth would you not consider the Madura keris "authentic"? The sheath carving certainly has little to do with traditional style Madurese wrongko of the, say. 19thC, but this style of carving IS very much in Madurese and i would accept it as a tradition piece for the late 20thC. I certainly wouldn't brand this a "tourist keris", it's just not an "old" keris. It is a decently executed blade, certainly not tourist junk. It is a modern keris for the modern keris collector. Why should we have to wait another hunderd years to accept that (you know....when it becomes old).

29th December 2005, 05:15 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	One thing for sure. If the Madurese scabbard and hilt is any indication, the art of fine wood carving is very much alive and well on the islands, even if in this case it's "too much".

29th December 2005, 06:18 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Agreed Charles, and even though this dress might me considered s bit "busy" it is very nicely executed and in line with Madurese carving style and motifs. BTW, can someone explain the poll to me at the top of the page. What am i voting for exactly by picking #1 or #2?

29th December 2005, 07:50 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Nechesh, It certainly isn't my intention to take the pleasure away by fellow collectors. I don't say anything about the blade than that it is a new blade. It certainly is a well executed blade and you can use it in comparing it with other blades to see the differences between old and new blades. I don't have problems with new blades at all. In my collection I do have a few keris with new blades. Lovely and well made. I'm very glad that today still beautiful keris are made for us collectors to expand our collection. Even the ukiran is no problem. As a matter of fact fitting perfectly on a maduran keris and a nice piece of carving. But the scabbard is really too much. The "authenticity" is a matter of taste and taste is a personel matter. For me it is the scabbard that takes all the authenticity away from the entire piece. I know that the maduran carving is rich and well executed and I have no problems with new traditions. But I would prefer a more "traditionally" carved maduran scabbard for this piece. In my opinion a keris in such a scabbard is made for export purposes only. I would like to compare it with those famous KNIL keris. A real keris but dressed in a cheap scabbard and ukiran for the dutch soldiers to bring home as a souvenir. Those keris are still mentioned as the first tourist keris. Although I don't have such a keris in my collection, such a keris with that story should be a part of any keris collection. And maybe I have to get used to a more fancy madura dress of the late 20th century. But that's my problem, I'm rather traditional and old fashioned

29th December 2005, 10:17 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I understand what you are saying Henk, but you must admit this is fairly good carving. The carving on those old Dutch solider keris (which i agree are collectable for their place in history if nothing else) usually doesn't even approach this carving standard. I am not so certain one can be sure that this sheath was carved with only export in mind. Welcome to the "new traditionalists"!

30th December 2005, 04:52 AM	#8
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I think the examples Mans posted show pretty clearly that Rizramon's Madurese dress is well within the bounds of traditional and authentic work from that area. No, you don't have to like it, but i still would maintain that there is nothing about this keris that insists that it would only be made for a foriegn market.