what mandau is this?

Green · 18th August 2015, 01:41 PM

here are the notches i meant.

Roland_M · 18th August 2015, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

here are the notches i meant.

Hello Green,

1: I would say a nice Kayan mandau, but I'm no expert.

2: A head hunting mandau is thick at the base, sharp, quite heavy, forward balanced, often "decorated" with nicks and has a concave/convex blade. The best head hunting mandau are made from clay tempered, laminated high quality steel with a beautiful hamon. I have one of these

.

3: I heard, that the number of brass points in many mandau are equal to the number of "purloined" heads.

Roland

Green · 18th August 2015, 04:21 PM

Roland;

Many thanks for the comments! would love to see pics of your headhunting mandau!

Jim McDougall · 18th August 2015, 05:06 PM

While my knowledge on these and many of the Indonesian, SE Asian forms is admittedly quite limited, from discussions over the years here, it seems that the concept of 'notching' signifying some sort of tally for heads taken is a rather 'perceived' western notion . It is the same for the brass filled holes in the blade.
Actually the brass filled holes seem to correspond in some degree to this practice in many ethnographic settings; in Arab/Mamluk swords there were often a number of brass or gold filled holes in the blade which are believed likely to be talismanic for good fortune and power to the wielder . This same type of practice is found in North Africa as well as in Europe in degree in varying cases, actual meanings unknown.

As far as the notches in the back of the blade, these of course are believed significant symbolically though not in a tally sense. It seems these occur in many SE Asian dha, and in my own experience, the same type lines, sometimes diagonal, are tribally aligned (in one I had which was traced to a Hmong tribe in a Laotian context, Montagnard from Viet Nam, 60s).

Headhunting itself was of course outlawed in the early 20th century, but naturally old traditions may remain in degree in more remote regions.

The idea of regional attribution with any degree of certainty is a very slippery slope indeed with ethnographic arms, though one might find a certain proclivity of form or decoration to a defined area. There are I believe some good images in the Holstein reference from 1930s (cant recall the title offhand, but Im sure the much more informed group here who collect these can help out).

Ian · 19th August 2015, 05:23 AM

Jim:

I agree strongly with the idea that brass inlays of the face of blades are probably of talismanic importance or purely decorative. They are found occasionally in mainland SE Asian blades, as well as some from southern China (Yunnan). I have several dha/daab/dao with inserted dots towards the tip. The "notches" on the back of these swords are a relatively recent phenomenon and purely decorative (according to native informants). Since the bronze inserts are part of forging the blade, it is highly unlikely they indicate what would happen when the blade was used subsequently. Likewise the file work and copper or bronze inserts on the spine of the blade are put there at the time the blade is made.

The idea that these features represent some tally of kills or heads taken is not supported facts, and yet the notion continues to be spread, perhaps as a marketing tool by a few sellers of these items.

I think it is important that this Forum debunks such myths as often as they come up. I mean no disrespect to Roland_M or Green in raising this point. They are not alone in having heard these rumors, and I want to thank them for raising the issue again just so we can remind our readers of the facts as they have emerged in these pages over the years.

There is always the possibility that what has been stated as "factual" may not be universally true. If anyone has firm ethnographic evidence that a SE Asian culture kept "score" of an individual's kills or heads taken by marking his weapon, then please report it here--it would be important new information.

A further note on mandau. The reports of early travelers in Borneo noted that individual natives usually owned several mandau. These were all purpose tools and weapons that were made by the respective owner. Within an individual's arsenal there could be wide variation in decoration, carving, weight, length, etc. A tribal leader might have 20 or more mandau.

Ian.

Roland_M · 21st August 2015, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

Roland;

Many thanks for the comments! would love to see pics of your headhunting mandau!

Hello Green

Quite late, I'm sorry, i have a summer flu, but here it is. I will introduce it in a few weeks with better pictures.

The laminated structure and hamon are a little weak but still good to see.

The deep polish was neccesary, because the previous owner used an angle grinder to remove the rust.

Roland

18th August 2015, 01:41 PM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 320	here are the notches i meant. Attached Images

18th August 2015, 04:21 PM	#3
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 320	Roland; Many thanks for the comments! would love to see pics of your headhunting mandau!

18th August 2015, 05:06 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	While my knowledge on these and many of the Indonesian, SE Asian forms is admittedly quite limited, from discussions over the years here, it seems that the concept of 'notching' signifying some sort of tally for heads taken is a rather 'perceived' western notion . It is the same for the brass filled holes in the blade. Actually the brass filled holes seem to correspond in some degree to this practice in many ethnographic settings; in Arab/Mamluk swords there were often a number of brass or gold filled holes in the blade which are believed likely to be talismanic for good fortune and power to the wielder . This same type of practice is found in North Africa as well as in Europe in degree in varying cases, actual meanings unknown. As far as the notches in the back of the blade, these of course are believed significant symbolically though not in a tally sense. It seems these occur in many SE Asian dha, and in my own experience, the same type lines, sometimes diagonal, are tribally aligned (in one I had which was traced to a Hmong tribe in a Laotian context, Montagnard from Viet Nam, 60s). Headhunting itself was of course outlawed in the early 20th century, but naturally old traditions may remain in degree in more remote regions. The idea of regional attribution with any degree of certainty is a very slippery slope indeed with ethnographic arms, though one might find a certain proclivity of form or decoration to a defined area. There are I believe some good images in the Holstein reference from 1930s (cant recall the title offhand, but Im sure the much more informed group here who collect these can help out).

19th August 2015, 05:23 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Jim: I agree strongly with the idea that brass inlays of the face of blades are probably of talismanic importance or purely decorative. They are found occasionally in mainland SE Asian blades, as well as some from southern China (Yunnan). I have several dha/daab/dao with inserted dots towards the tip. The "notches" on the back of these swords are a relatively recent phenomenon and purely decorative (according to native informants). Since the bronze inserts are part of forging the blade, it is highly unlikely they indicate what would happen when the blade was used subsequently. Likewise the file work and copper or bronze inserts on the spine of the blade are put there at the time the blade is made. The idea that these features represent some tally of kills or heads taken is not supported facts, and yet the notion continues to be spread, perhaps as a marketing tool by a few sellers of these items. I think it is important that this Forum debunks such myths as often as they come up. I mean no disrespect to Roland_M or Green in raising this point. They are not alone in having heard these rumors, and I want to thank them for raising the issue again just so we can remind our readers of the facts as they have emerged in these pages over the years. There is always the possibility that what has been stated as "factual" may not be universally true. If anyone has firm ethnographic evidence that a SE Asian culture kept "score" of an individual's kills or heads taken by marking his weapon, then please report it here--it would be important new information. A further note on mandau. The reports of early travelers in Borneo noted that individual natives usually owned several mandau. These were all purpose tools and weapons that were made by the respective owner. Within an individual's arsenal there could be wide variation in decoration, carving, weight, length, etc. A tribal leader might have 20 or more mandau. Ian.