How does one hold a tulwar?

[sirupate]

Hi Blue Lander,
I'm not aware of Indian Martial Arts being banned under the Raj, indeed there was quite a bit of cross pollination, and many accounts of British Cavalry learning Indian sword techniques, all the best Simon

[blue lander]

http://gatkafederationofindia.org/gatka_british.php

I'm no expert on any of this stuff, but I've read similar accounts from other sites. On the other hand, it seems like basic knowledge like "how to hold a sword" would have survived even if it was banned.

Here's a probably irrelevant anecdote: I was showing my sword collection to an older Mongolian man, and he took my tulwar and dhal off the wall and started doing draw cuts with it. I have no idea what his background was since he only spoke a few words of English, but he seemed to know what he was doing. He was very unhappy with the hilt, from his gesturing I think he expected a shamshir hilt. He explained through gestures and his few words that you should never swing it like an axe, only draw cuts. What struck me was how short range these draw cuts were, you'd have to be within punching distance to actually hit anyone. Considering all of that, I doubt the tulwar hilt served any defensive purpose no matter how you grip it.

[sirupate]

Thanks for the link Blue Lander, that seems to contradict Swordsman of the British Empire, I wonder if anyone else has an opinion, cheers Simon

[blue lander]

I'm trying to find the article but I think I read the British allowed a "ceremonial" form of gatka to be practiced but the actually effective "war" form of gatka was banned

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by blue lander

Considering all of that, I doubt the tulwar hilt served any defensive purpose no matter how you grip it.

Yes. This is true of many, many sword hilts. While some sword hilts have a defensive function, the protection is rather minimal on many, and many don't provide any protection at all. The one universal function of a sword hilt is for holding/using the sword.

A knuckle-bow can still be useful in very close fighting - after all, the opponent probably has a naked sword blade of his own between your hand and his body, and a knuckle-bow will protect your hand when you accidentally put your hand into your opponent's blade.

Originally Posted by blue lander

I'm curious about knuckle bows on Tulwars. Some have them and some don't . Is this a regional thing or is one form older than the other?

I can't say anything useful about region or era, but can say something about function. The benefits are noted above, but there are disadvantages, too. If fighting in close, the knuckle-bow provides a handhold the the opponent to grab and control your sword. A knuckle-bow can also make it a little harder to grab your hilt properly when in a hurry.

[Pukka Bundook]

Timo,

I think that knuckle -bows are as you say, sometimes a disadvantage.
More vital protection I believe, comes from the upper and lower guard.
By this I mean that these guards help prevent the knuckles contacting an opposing shield used to parry your blow.
Even the short cross of many Viking era swords still give this protection.

Best,
Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

When it comes to how to hold a tulwar hilt, I would politely ask all of you to study the miniatures published in several books, and I would be very interested to know, if any of you have found one single picture where the man is curling his index finger around the quillon.
These miniatures are the 'photos' of the time, so to say, so if none of them show a curled index finger around the quillon, it is likely to say that they did not do so.
I dont find any modern videos shown on the net to be proff of anything.
Jens

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

When it comes to how to hold a tulwar hilt, I would politely ask all of you to study the miniatures published in several books, and I would be very interested to know, if any of you have found one single picture where the man is curling his index finger around the quillon.
These miniatures are the 'photos' of the time, so to say, so if none of them show a curled index finger around the quillon, it is likely to say that they did not do so.
I dont find any modern videos shown on the net to be proff of anything.
Jens

Salaams Jens Nordlunde, I think some of what you say is probably right...and very much respected...however, curling the index finger around the quillon is not at all uncomfortable, moreover, it allows much greater force to be applied in the downward thrust.

Using the fist in unarmed combat as the example in what is described as the hammerfist ...(best described as when using a fist to crash down on a table)...instead of keeping all the fingers tight in a 4 finger and thumb clenched fist the advanced strike is with a relaxed top or index finger...thus using a three finger and thumb clenched fist...The power ratio is greatly enhanced as I believe it is when the finger is curled around the quillon.

The problem appears to be that there is no photo "except at this thread" to suggest that this was a preferred grip.

I also suggest that the draw would be more positive with the finger looped around the quillon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for your answer Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
You always answer in a nice language - and I like that.

I do not think that you are right, can you show me a single battle scene, where the fighters have the indexfinger curled around the quillon?

To me this will be the last post on this thread - and I wish all others to have a good discussion.

Jens

[Edster]

While its not a tulwar, this Sudanese chap in a crouch fighting stance has his forefinger over the cross-guard of his kaskara. For what ever its worth.

Photo coming soon. Needs to be reduced.