How does one hold a tulwar?

Timo Nieminen · 13th August 2015, 02:52 AM

Just hold it in a hammer-grip, keep your wrist fairly straight (so the blade is at 90 degree to the forearm), and slice away (i.e., draw cut).

The snug fit lets you securely hold the sword without having to hold it tightly. So you can easily stay relaxed and fluid, and not tire. It's important to have the correct size hilt. Too small, and your hand is squeezed, but too large and you lose that relaxed but secure grip. Worse, the sword doesn't easily stay at the correct angle with a too-large hilt, and the pommel can dig into the hand/wrist. So rather than large one-size-fits-all hilts, we see a range of sizes. If your hilt is too small or big, replace it with the right size (or just swap the whole sword for one with a right-size hilt). The disc pommel isn't just to keep your hand there; it's also a good lever for moving the sword around.

I find the same thing with Viking sword hilts, and some other European medieval-style hilts. Notably, traditionally used with shields.

I find that hilts which curve forward at the end, away from the heel of the hand, with pommels that project forward past the little finger (e.g., a barong grip, some kris grips, shamshir grips, and many more), give some of the advantages of tulwar/Viking hilts, while at the same time giving you some of the advantages of handshake grip (or sabre grip). A kukri grip gives a similar (but different) compromise.

(1) Confined grips: stay in hammer grip
(2) Long straight grips: stay in handshake grip (perhaps with two hands)
(3) Hooked-forward grip: a hammer/handshake hybrid
I don't know how universal (2) is for the type of grip. Specifically, I don't know enough about grips used for fighting with SE Asian dha.

sirupate · 13th August 2015, 09:06 AM

Hi Blue Lander,
I'm not aware of Indian Martial Arts being banned under the Raj, indeed there was quite a bit of cross pollination, and many accounts of British Cavalry learning Indian sword techniques, all the best Simon

blue lander · 13th August 2015, 02:14 PM

http://gatkafederationofindia.org/gatka_british.php

I'm no expert on any of this stuff, but I've read similar accounts from other sites. On the other hand, it seems like basic knowledge like "how to hold a sword" would have survived even if it was banned.

Here's a probably irrelevant anecdote: I was showing my sword collection to an older Mongolian man, and he took my tulwar and dhal off the wall and started doing draw cuts with it. I have no idea what his background was since he only spoke a few words of English, but he seemed to know what he was doing. He was very unhappy with the hilt, from his gesturing I think he expected a shamshir hilt. He explained through gestures and his few words that you should never swing it like an axe, only draw cuts. What struck me was how short range these draw cuts were, you'd have to be within punching distance to actually hit anyone. Considering all of that, I doubt the tulwar hilt served any defensive purpose no matter how you grip it.

sirupate · 13th August 2015, 02:53 PM

Thanks for the link Blue Lander, that seems to contradict Swordsman of the British Empire, I wonder if anyone else has an opinion, cheers Simon

blue lander · 13th August 2015, 03:15 PM

I'm trying to find the article but I think I read the British allowed a "ceremonial" form of gatka to be practiced but the actually effective "war" form of gatka was banned

Timo Nieminen · 14th August 2015, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

Considering all of that, I doubt the tulwar hilt served any defensive purpose no matter how you grip it.

Yes. This is true of many, many sword hilts. While some sword hilts have a defensive function, the protection is rather minimal on many, and many don't provide any protection at all. The one universal function of a sword hilt is for holding/using the sword.

A knuckle-bow can still be useful in very close fighting - after all, the opponent probably has a naked sword blade of his own between your hand and his body, and a knuckle-bow will protect your hand when you accidentally put your hand into your opponent's blade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

I'm curious about knuckle bows on Tulwars. Some have them and some don't . Is this a regional thing or is one form older than the other?

I can't say anything useful about region or era, but can say something about function. The benefits are noted above, but there are disadvantages, too. If fighting in close, the knuckle-bow provides a handhold the the opponent to grab and control your sword. A knuckle-bow can also make it a little harder to grab your hilt properly when in a hurry.

Pukka Bundook · 14th August 2015, 01:38 PM

Timo,

I think that knuckle -bows are as you say, sometimes a disadvantage.
More vital protection I believe, comes from the upper and lower guard.
By this I mean that these guards help prevent the knuckles contacting an opposing shield used to parry your blow.
Even the short cross of many Viking era swords still give this protection.

Best,
Richard.

Jens Nordlunde · 14th August 2015, 04:11 PM

When it comes to how to hold a tulwar hilt, I would politely ask all of you to study the miniatures published in several books, and I would be very interested to know, if any of you have found one single picture where the man is curling his index finger around the quillon.
These miniatures are the 'photos' of the time, so to say, so if none of them show a curled index finger around the quillon, it is likely to say that they did not do so.
I dont find any modern videos shown on the net to be proff of anything.
Jens

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th August 2015, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

When it comes to how to hold a tulwar hilt, I would politely ask all of you to study the miniatures published in several books, and I would be very interested to know, if any of you have found one single picture where the man is curling his index finger around the quillon.
These miniatures are the 'photos' of the time, so to say, so if none of them show a curled index finger around the quillon, it is likely to say that they did not do so.
I dont find any modern videos shown on the net to be proff of anything.
Jens

Salaams Jens Nordlunde, I think some of what you say is probably right...and very much respected...however, curling the index finger around the quillon is not at all uncomfortable, moreover, it allows much greater force to be applied in the downward thrust.

Using the fist in unarmed combat as the example in what is described as the hammerfist ...(best described as when using a fist to crash down on a table)...instead of keeping all the fingers tight in a 4 finger and thumb clenched fist the advanced strike is with a relaxed top or index finger...thus using a three finger and thumb clenched fist...The power ratio is greatly enhanced as I believe it is when the finger is curled around the quillon.

The problem appears to be that there is no photo "except at this thread" to suggest that this was a preferred grip.

I also suggest that the draw would be more positive with the finger looped around the quillon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

14th August 2015, 04:11 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	When it comes to how to hold a tulwar hilt, I would politely ask all of you to study the miniatures published in several books, and I would be very interested to know, if any of you have found one single picture where the man is curling his index finger around the quillon. These miniatures are the 'photos' of the time, so to say, so if none of them show a curled index finger around the quillon, it is likely to say that they did not do so. I dont find any modern videos shown on the net to be proff of anything. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 15th August 2015 at 01:12 PM.

13th August 2015, 02:52 AM	#1
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Just hold it in a hammer-grip, keep your wrist fairly straight (so the blade is at 90 degree to the forearm), and slice away (i.e., draw cut). The snug fit lets you securely hold the sword without having to hold it tightly. So you can easily stay relaxed and fluid, and not tire. It's important to have the correct size hilt. Too small, and your hand is squeezed, but too large and you lose that relaxed but secure grip. Worse, the sword doesn't easily stay at the correct angle with a too-large hilt, and the pommel can dig into the hand/wrist. So rather than large one-size-fits-all hilts, we see a range of sizes. If your hilt is too small or big, replace it with the right size (or just swap the whole sword for one with a right-size hilt). The disc pommel isn't just to keep your hand there; it's also a good lever for moving the sword around. I find the same thing with Viking sword hilts, and some other European medieval-style hilts. Notably, traditionally used with shields. I find that hilts which curve forward at the end, away from the heel of the hand, with pommels that project forward past the little finger (e.g., a barong grip, some kris grips, shamshir grips, and many more), give some of the advantages of tulwar/Viking hilts, while at the same time giving you some of the advantages of handshake grip (or sabre grip). A kukri grip gives a similar (but different) compromise. (1) Confined grips: stay in hammer grip (2) Long straight grips: stay in handshake grip (perhaps with two hands) (3) Hooked-forward grip: a hammer/handshake hybrid I don't know how universal (2) is for the type of grip. Specifically, I don't know enough about grips used for fighting with SE Asian dha.

13th August 2015, 09:06 AM	#2
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hi Blue Lander, I'm not aware of Indian Martial Arts being banned under the Raj, indeed there was quite a bit of cross pollination, and many accounts of British Cavalry learning Indian sword techniques, all the best Simon

13th August 2015, 02:14 PM	#3
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	http://gatkafederationofindia.org/gatka_british.php I'm no expert on any of this stuff, but I've read similar accounts from other sites. On the other hand, it seems like basic knowledge like "how to hold a sword" would have survived even if it was banned. Here's a probably irrelevant anecdote: I was showing my sword collection to an older Mongolian man, and he took my tulwar and dhal off the wall and started doing draw cuts with it. I have no idea what his background was since he only spoke a few words of English, but he seemed to know what he was doing. He was very unhappy with the hilt, from his gesturing I think he expected a shamshir hilt. He explained through gestures and his few words that you should never swing it like an axe, only draw cuts. What struck me was how short range these draw cuts were, you'd have to be within punching distance to actually hit anyone. Considering all of that, I doubt the tulwar hilt served any defensive purpose no matter how you grip it.

13th August 2015, 02:53 PM	#4
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Thanks for the link Blue Lander, that seems to contradict Swordsman of the British Empire, I wonder if anyone else has an opinion, cheers Simon

13th August 2015, 03:15 PM	#5
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I'm trying to find the article but I think I read the British allowed a "ceremonial" form of gatka to be practiced but the actually effective "war" form of gatka was banned

14th August 2015, 01:38 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Timo, I think that knuckle -bows are as you say, sometimes a disadvantage. More vital protection I believe, comes from the upper and lower guard. By this I mean that these guards help prevent the knuckles contacting an opposing shield used to parry your blow. Even the short cross of many Viking era swords still give this protection. Best, Richard.