How does one hold a tulwar?

sirupate · 12th August 2015, 06:48 PM

I've seen his demo's and had a few chats with him, mainly about the way they use the kukri, if I see him again I'll ask about the grip types, but as the picture shows he teaches and uses one of the two standard sabre grips.

blue lander · 12th August 2015, 08:30 PM

Isn't that fellows form of martial art an attempt at "reconstructing" Indian martial arts that were banned under the Raj? I wonder how definitive his interpretation should be considered

sirupate · 12th August 2015, 08:59 PM

I don't know if his stuff is reconstructed (like a lot of European MA) or he was taught it Blue Lander

Rafngard · 12th August 2015, 10:38 PM

Regarding the exposed thumb on the guy about to be disarmed, it's real easy to accidentally break someone's thumb in a disarm if they're holding on to tight. I suspect that's related.

Have fun,
Leif

Timo Nieminen · 13th August 2015, 02:52 AM

Just hold it in a hammer-grip, keep your wrist fairly straight (so the blade is at 90 degree to the forearm), and slice away (i.e., draw cut).

The snug fit lets you securely hold the sword without having to hold it tightly. So you can easily stay relaxed and fluid, and not tire. It's important to have the correct size hilt. Too small, and your hand is squeezed, but too large and you lose that relaxed but secure grip. Worse, the sword doesn't easily stay at the correct angle with a too-large hilt, and the pommel can dig into the hand/wrist. So rather than large one-size-fits-all hilts, we see a range of sizes. If your hilt is too small or big, replace it with the right size (or just swap the whole sword for one with a right-size hilt). The disc pommel isn't just to keep your hand there; it's also a good lever for moving the sword around.

I find the same thing with Viking sword hilts, and some other European medieval-style hilts. Notably, traditionally used with shields.

I find that hilts which curve forward at the end, away from the heel of the hand, with pommels that project forward past the little finger (e.g., a barong grip, some kris grips, shamshir grips, and many more), give some of the advantages of tulwar/Viking hilts, while at the same time giving you some of the advantages of handshake grip (or sabre grip). A kukri grip gives a similar (but different) compromise.

(1) Confined grips: stay in hammer grip
(2) Long straight grips: stay in handshake grip (perhaps with two hands)
(3) Hooked-forward grip: a hammer/handshake hybrid
I don't know how universal (2) is for the type of grip. Specifically, I don't know enough about grips used for fighting with SE Asian dha.

sirupate · 13th August 2015, 09:06 AM

Hi Blue Lander,
I'm not aware of Indian Martial Arts being banned under the Raj, indeed there was quite a bit of cross pollination, and many accounts of British Cavalry learning Indian sword techniques, all the best Simon

blue lander · 13th August 2015, 02:14 PM

http://gatkafederationofindia.org/gatka_british.php

I'm no expert on any of this stuff, but I've read similar accounts from other sites. On the other hand, it seems like basic knowledge like "how to hold a sword" would have survived even if it was banned.

Here's a probably irrelevant anecdote: I was showing my sword collection to an older Mongolian man, and he took my tulwar and dhal off the wall and started doing draw cuts with it. I have no idea what his background was since he only spoke a few words of English, but he seemed to know what he was doing. He was very unhappy with the hilt, from his gesturing I think he expected a shamshir hilt. He explained through gestures and his few words that you should never swing it like an axe, only draw cuts. What struck me was how short range these draw cuts were, you'd have to be within punching distance to actually hit anyone. Considering all of that, I doubt the tulwar hilt served any defensive purpose no matter how you grip it.

12th August 2015, 06:48 PM	#1
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	I've seen his demo's and had a few chats with him, mainly about the way they use the kukri, if I see him again I'll ask about the grip types, but as the picture shows he teaches and uses one of the two standard sabre grips.

12th August 2015, 08:30 PM	#2
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Isn't that fellows form of martial art an attempt at "reconstructing" Indian martial arts that were banned under the Raj? I wonder how definitive his interpretation should be considered

12th August 2015, 08:59 PM	#3
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	I don't know if his stuff is reconstructed (like a lot of European MA) or he was taught it Blue Lander

12th August 2015, 10:38 PM	#4
Rafngard Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Minneapolis,MN Posts: 347	Regarding the exposed thumb on the guy about to be disarmed, it's real easy to accidentally break someone's thumb in a disarm if they're holding on to tight. I suspect that's related. Have fun, Leif

13th August 2015, 02:52 AM	#5
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	Just hold it in a hammer-grip, keep your wrist fairly straight (so the blade is at 90 degree to the forearm), and slice away (i.e., draw cut). The snug fit lets you securely hold the sword without having to hold it tightly. So you can easily stay relaxed and fluid, and not tire. It's important to have the correct size hilt. Too small, and your hand is squeezed, but too large and you lose that relaxed but secure grip. Worse, the sword doesn't easily stay at the correct angle with a too-large hilt, and the pommel can dig into the hand/wrist. So rather than large one-size-fits-all hilts, we see a range of sizes. If your hilt is too small or big, replace it with the right size (or just swap the whole sword for one with a right-size hilt). The disc pommel isn't just to keep your hand there; it's also a good lever for moving the sword around. I find the same thing with Viking sword hilts, and some other European medieval-style hilts. Notably, traditionally used with shields. I find that hilts which curve forward at the end, away from the heel of the hand, with pommels that project forward past the little finger (e.g., a barong grip, some kris grips, shamshir grips, and many more), give some of the advantages of tulwar/Viking hilts, while at the same time giving you some of the advantages of handshake grip (or sabre grip). A kukri grip gives a similar (but different) compromise. (1) Confined grips: stay in hammer grip (2) Long straight grips: stay in handshake grip (perhaps with two hands) (3) Hooked-forward grip: a hammer/handshake hybrid I don't know how universal (2) is for the type of grip. Specifically, I don't know enough about grips used for fighting with SE Asian dha.

13th August 2015, 09:06 AM	#6
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hi Blue Lander, I'm not aware of Indian Martial Arts being banned under the Raj, indeed there was quite a bit of cross pollination, and many accounts of British Cavalry learning Indian sword techniques, all the best Simon

13th August 2015, 02:14 PM	#7
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	http://gatkafederationofindia.org/gatka_british.php I'm no expert on any of this stuff, but I've read similar accounts from other sites. On the other hand, it seems like basic knowledge like "how to hold a sword" would have survived even if it was banned. Here's a probably irrelevant anecdote: I was showing my sword collection to an older Mongolian man, and he took my tulwar and dhal off the wall and started doing draw cuts with it. I have no idea what his background was since he only spoke a few words of English, but he seemed to know what he was doing. He was very unhappy with the hilt, from his gesturing I think he expected a shamshir hilt. He explained through gestures and his few words that you should never swing it like an axe, only draw cuts. What struck me was how short range these draw cuts were, you'd have to be within punching distance to actually hit anyone. Considering all of that, I doubt the tulwar hilt served any defensive purpose no matter how you grip it.