How does one hold a tulwar?

AJ1356 · 11th August 2015, 03:53 PM

I've been following this guy's videos for a while now, he is going through a few swords and the only sword he holds with the index finger over the gaurd is a short sword in the left hand. It is in the 3rd video, but if you see the guys working with him they are holding their normally as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLTcVJGMBkQ

kronckew · 11th August 2015, 04:51 PM

nice video. the disk pommel is there to force you to keep the blade at roughly a 90 degree angle to your forearm, unlike a western swordsman who would extend the blade with a lot more reach. this position encourages the draw and push cuts you see in the video. the disks on theirs are not as pronounced as many, and do allow a bit more extension, but a std. western thrust is difficult.

the man standing is holding his sword w/o fingering the guard & he has a reasonably large disk pommel. the seated man has his finger over, but i do not see a disk pommel of a tulwar, and suspect it is a short sword as mentioned.

western swords with simple cross guards are frequently used finger over the guard in a style where the hand is protected by an armoured gauntlet offering finger protection. as armour fell out of fashion,you start to get rings coming off the guard to protect the finger over the guard, and/or a guard extension bent down towards the pommel to protect the hand, eventually developing into the elaborate guards of rapiers and basket hilts, which further develop into again more simple guards of latter day swords. i've seen anumber ofn sabres with a leather loop behind the guard bowl to put your finger thru, and polish sabres frequently had a thumb ring for similar use.

i recall a scene in 'kingdom of heaven' where balial's dad tells him 'always take a high guard' - that makes sense if you note they were not wearing armoured gauntlets & the hand & forearm is much more vulnerable to stop cuts/thrusts with a simple cross guard. anything you stick out in front of you, arm, hand, foot, leg is a legitimate and tempting target and a cut to them can disable or even kill, or at least permit a killing followup. a man whose arm nerves or tendons have ben cut cannot hold his sword & thus is either no longer a threat, or vulnerable to a killing blow. ditto on the legs. major blood vessels in the inside of the elbow, the arm pit or the groin - inside upper thigh, allow fairly quick bleed-out with resulting death if not quickly stopped. and of course similar cuts to the more obviously vulnerable neck.

p.s. - a deep cut to the bone on the fore-finger HURTS*, almost as much as when the surgeon sews it back up. i would bet a chopped off finger would restrict a swordsmans abilities to use his weapon. he might then prefer a pata.

*frozen beef roast -1 : me -nil. finger is still a bit numb after 20 years where the nerve was cut. luckily it was my left hand.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th August 2015, 06:11 PM

Ian,
I think I know exactly what you meant by starting this thread :-).

I feel with you, but as you say, luckily it was the left hand.

Jens

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th August 2015, 06:34 PM

I think it is part personal preference and indeed a change of grip depending on the sword use would be very fast...However is it not ultimately dependent on the size of the sword hand compared to the hilt? The chap shown has huge hands and he could not possibly hold the small Tulvar grip . Using the sword with the finger over the guard makes for a very powerful down strike...or maybe he is trying to get one finger cut off so that his hand will fit??...

David R · 11th August 2015, 07:47 PM

H. Russell Robinson was a big advocate of the "fore finger" grip, but he also believed there was a difference between War and Hunting Tulwar and the way they were used.
Generally those blades that had a lot of meat in the last third of the blade he saw as War Swords, and those with an elegant taper to the point as Hunting Swords. Animals do not cut back, so the forefinger grip would not be a problem..... Just my two pennyworth here.
http://www.worldcat.org/title/orient...tionsView=true

Pukka Bundook · 12th August 2015, 05:05 AM

Jens,

It is good to be here and to talk to you. Too much to do is not good, and a lot has happened over the last while.

When I mention the finger over the guard may not be in such danger as in Western fencing, this does not mean I would be using such a grip if in a fight!
No, as long as I could get my whole hand inside the guard, that would be how I would hold it. "Josh" was the term was sit not? for the feeling of confidence etc. in a good tight grip!

I am pleased you are well, Jens.

Best of everything.
Richard.

blue lander · 12th August 2015, 05:43 PM

With the kind of long draw cuts you do with a tulwar your forearm and fingers are going to be exposed no matter how you hold it (which is where the dhal comes in)

11th August 2015, 04:51 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	nice video. the disk pommel is there to force you to keep the blade at roughly a 90 degree angle to your forearm, unlike a western swordsman who would extend the blade with a lot more reach. this position encourages the draw and push cuts you see in the video. the disks on theirs are not as pronounced as many, and do allow a bit more extension, but a std. western thrust is difficult. the man standing is holding his sword w/o fingering the guard & he has a reasonably large disk pommel. the seated man has his finger over, but i do not see a disk pommel of a tulwar, and suspect it is a short sword as mentioned. western swords with simple cross guards are frequently used finger over the guard in a style where the hand is protected by an armoured gauntlet offering finger protection. as armour fell out of fashion,you start to get rings coming off the guard to protect the finger over the guard, and/or a guard extension bent down towards the pommel to protect the hand, eventually developing into the elaborate guards of rapiers and basket hilts, which further develop into again more simple guards of latter day swords. i've seen anumber ofn sabres with a leather loop behind the guard bowl to put your finger thru, and polish sabres frequently had a thumb ring for similar use. i recall a scene in 'kingdom of heaven' where balial's dad tells him 'always take a high guard' - that makes sense if you note they were not wearing armoured gauntlets & the hand & forearm is much more vulnerable to stop cuts/thrusts with a simple cross guard. anything you stick out in front of you, arm, hand, foot, leg is a legitimate and tempting target and a cut to them can disable or even kill, or at least permit a killing followup. a man whose arm nerves or tendons have ben cut cannot hold his sword & thus is either no longer a threat, or vulnerable to a killing blow. ditto on the legs. major blood vessels in the inside of the elbow, the arm pit or the groin - inside upper thigh, allow fairly quick bleed-out with resulting death if not quickly stopped. and of course similar cuts to the more obviously vulnerable neck. p.s. - a deep cut to the bone on the fore-finger HURTS, almost as much as when the surgeon sews it back up. i would bet a chopped off finger would restrict a swordsmans abilities to use his weapon. he might then prefer a pata. frozen beef roast -1 : me -nil. finger is still a bit numb after 20 years where the nerve was cut. luckily it was my left hand. Last edited by kronckew; 11th August 2015 at 05:10 PM.

11th August 2015, 03:53 PM	#1
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	I've been following this guy's videos for a while now, he is going through a few swords and the only sword he holds with the index finger over the gaurd is a short sword in the left hand. It is in the 3rd video, but if you see the guys working with him they are holding their normally as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLTcVJGMBkQ

11th August 2015, 06:11 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ian, I think I know exactly what you meant by starting this thread :-). I feel with you, but as you say, luckily it was the left hand. Jens

11th August 2015, 06:34 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I think it is part personal preference and indeed a change of grip depending on the sword use would be very fast...However is it not ultimately dependent on the size of the sword hand compared to the hilt? The chap shown has huge hands and he could not possibly hold the small Tulvar grip . Using the sword with the finger over the guard makes for a very powerful down strike...or maybe he is trying to get one finger cut off so that his hand will fit??...

11th August 2015, 07:47 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	H. Russell Robinson was a big advocate of the "fore finger" grip, but he also believed there was a difference between War and Hunting Tulwar and the way they were used. Generally those blades that had a lot of meat in the last third of the blade he saw as War Swords, and those with an elegant taper to the point as Hunting Swords. Animals do not cut back, so the forefinger grip would not be a problem..... Just my two pennyworth here. http://www.worldcat.org/title/orient...tionsView=true

12th August 2015, 05:05 AM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jens, It is good to be here and to talk to you. Too much to do is not good, and a lot has happened over the last while. When I mention the finger over the guard may not be in such danger as in Western fencing, this does not mean I would be using such a grip if in a fight! No, as long as I could get my whole hand inside the guard, that would be how I would hold it. "Josh" was the term was sit not? for the feeling of confidence etc. in a good tight grip! I am pleased you are well, Jens. Best of everything. Richard.

12th August 2015, 05:43 PM	#7
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	With the kind of long draw cuts you do with a tulwar your forearm and fingers are going to be exposed no matter how you hold it (which is where the dhal comes in)