Odd Sword

Iain · 31st July 2015, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Thank you for the information. I think it is one thing to get involved and crack the inscription but it is unsatisfactory to be hoodwinked into thinking that a sword is genuine when in fact it is put together by expert forgers...It is the same as someone sticking a French blade on a Japanese hilt...is it not? I have known the owner of this sword for 20 years and I believe he has been completely ripped off ...This is a rehilt done after 1970...and is a complete con. I wish he had observed these pages much earlier ...he may have also directly referenced where he had mentioned also...

The blade is what it is, a nice and old European blade. I won't comment on the mounting and age.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st July 2015, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

The blade is what it is, a nice and old European blade. I won't comment on the mounting and age.

It is quite obviously a nice old European Blade. It was, however, imported after 1970 and joined to an equally nice Omani Battle Sword Hilt (then given the Royal Hilt treatment)...The hilt probably originally also quite old and I would reasonably guess about 200/250 years ....going by the look of the pommel...but it wouldn't matter if the hilt was 100 or 1,000 years old since they were stuck together in about 1970....in Mutrah. It is therefor what? An Omani Battle Sword?... I don't think so...Nice blade or not, the sword is a fake.

Ian · 31st July 2015, 06:52 PM

Ibrahiim:

I think you have made a strong case (several times) for this sword to be a recent marriage of an old European blade and an old Omani hilt that has been dressed up to be sold as something it is not--in other words it is a fake pretending to be an older sword. I don't hear anyone really objecting to your conclusions.

I think Iain and Fernando have now moved on to talk about the blade and what the inscription might mean. Fernando's reading of SUARES/SOARES is an interesting suggestion and might indicate a Portuguese origin. The other inscription seems more problematic.

Ian.

A.alnakkas · 31st July 2015, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Ibrahiim:

I think you have made a strong case (several times) for this sword to be a recent marriage of an old European blade and an old Omani hilt that has been dressed up to be sold as something it is not--in other words it is a fake pretending to be an older sword. I don't hear anyone really objecting to your conclusions.

I believe various objections were made in the topic that got locked. And I did as well in this one. Unless you consider repetition to be a 'strong' argument then case is closed. But let me restate what Ibrahim considers to be the reason why these are fakes;

1- Omanis do not use European trade blades (unlike the whole world and existing evidence that they did)

2- Therefore all Omani swords with European blades are automatically deemed as fakes. Even when there is no evidence to that.

---

The Ethiopian swords drowning the Arab world from Yemen all the way to Syria (pre-mess) are well known, and yes, there are Arab craftsmen who used the fine trade blades on Ethiopian swords to make new swords. This is seen in Oman (on swords with NEW dress) and Yemen and Saudi Arabia as well. Now this does not mean that every single European blade made it to the region through Ethiopia and 1970 that Ibrahim keeps repeating. There is evidence in Museums and collections abroad and within the region of such blades existing in the region for quite a long time.

Both blades published here are not of the type that is commonly find on Ethiopian swords, and the rounded tip on the first shows elements that are Omani rather than Ethiopian. We all know the tourist sword industry, I see no reason why they would round the tip, antique the blade to perfection to sell to tourists? makes no sense at all. All that added to the patina, the proper quality old riveting on the hilt tang compared to swords shared by Ibrahim with crappy welding.

Also, by all means visit Oman and visit Mutrah, I've been there and the demand for older European blades like this is high and seen as part of the sword culture there. Not Ethiopian swords made by Wilkinson, but Portuguese blades and older German ones. There are rehilts in Mutrah, and those are pointed out as so. It also happens that all the swords with proper blades were in private collections, while the rehilts (obviously so to collectors) are offered for sale.

But I guess lets just believe that Omanis had swords to dance with and swords to fight with. They probably had toy horses too.

Robert · 31st July 2015, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. alnakkas
But I guess lets just believe that Omanis had swords to dance with and swords to fight with. They probably had toy horses too.

Gentlemen, any further sarcasm or baiting by anyone will be dealt with quickly and harshly. You have been warned.

Robert

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st August 2015, 10:44 AM

The Inscription on # 1.

I think Hebrew is the form. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi_...abetVector.svg Actually the difficulty appears with the two A forms either flank of the line of letters SIMILAR TO A 51UU A already outlined at #46.

I mention OCS Old Church Slavonic see https://www.flickr.com/photos/habers...ytcheck=1which is well worth a look since the second line from the bottom and at number two from the right is the odd A I think we are looking for.

The links to Hebrew in this ancient form may well form the bridge to this mixed line of script.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st August 2015, 12:24 PM

It may mean absolutely nothing at all!!

From ananael@blogspot.com I QUOTE" Two swords bearing esoteric inscriptions are now on display at the Guildhall Museum in Boston, UK. They date from the 13th or 14th century and were discovered together at the bottom of the Witham River. So far the inscriptions have defied translation, though they may very well consist of magical formulas rather than words from any particular language. The use of such formulas was a common practice in the Middle Ages and early Renaissance. The famous phrase SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS, for example, does contain words that can be translated from Latin, but its function is more likely linked to that of the 5x5 magic square of Mars which its structure resembles.

Officials at the Guildhall say the best guess is that the weapons were dressed in such a fashion to endow them with special magical properties such as enabling their owners to vanquish any foe and endow their swords with the life force energy of their opponents.It is probable that the "magical" inscriptions were not visible when the swords were made and that only corrosion and decay of the outer surfaces over the centuries has now allowed their secrets to be revealed.

Mystery also surrounds their discovery close together at the bottom of the river near Bardney. One theory is that they may have been votive offerings to please the gods and so deliberately placed in the waters. At that time the Witham was the "motorway" of the day between Boston and Lincoln so the swords' owners may have been from this area and would certainly have been familiar with it. The swords are iron double-edged with a groove running down the greater part of the blade.

One has straight hand guard of circular section and a wheel pommel. The inscription on this one reads: '+SNEXORENEXORENEXOR ENE XOREIS+'.

The + probably represents the sign of the cross, as is commonly found on devices constructed by Christian magicians. The first part of the phrase, SNEXORENEXORENEXOR could be a gloss for SNEXORE NEXORE NEXOR, a reduction formula in which each subsequent word is shortened by a letter. ABRACADABRA can be written this way as a triangle in which each word loses one letter from the line above it. The reduction of the root word, in this case SNEXORE, served to concentrate its power and essence. The meaning of the keyword itself, though, could be just about anything, from poorly copied Greek or Hebrew from one of the old grimoires to a notariquon (or acronym) encoding some magical phrase or text".UNQUOTE.

WHILST READERS MAY TEND TO DISAGREE WITH SOME OF THE ABOVE HYPOTHESIS ..P[ERSONALLY i AM UNSURE OF THE IDEA THAT SWORDS WERE MADE WITH A HIDDEN TEXT ON THE BLADE WHICH APPEARED AFTER THE SWORD HAD CORRODED...NO I CANT QUITE SEE THAT...HOWEVER THE OTHER GENERAL IDEAS ARE INTERESTING ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 1st August 2015, 12:27 PM

There is not a trace, not a hint, not a whiff of Hebrew here. If you need confirmation, Artzi Yarom is the source.

There is not a trace, hint or whiff of Old Slavonic Glagolitic here, either.

Having seen the most recent pics, I thought that Soares was the obvious answer. Fernando beat me to it :-))))

Pure Western Europe.

31st July 2015, 06:52 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,470	Ibrahiim: I think you have made a strong case (several times) for this sword to be a recent marriage of an old European blade and an old Omani hilt that has been dressed up to be sold as something it is not--in other words it is a fake pretending to be an older sword. I don't hear anyone really objecting to your conclusions. I think Iain and Fernando have now moved on to talk about the blade and what the inscription might mean. Fernando's reading of SUARES/SOARES is an interesting suggestion and might indicate a Portuguese origin. The other inscription seems more problematic. Ian.

1st August 2015, 10:44 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The Inscription on # 1. I think Hebrew is the form. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi_...abetVector.svg Actually the difficulty appears with the two A forms either flank of the line of letters SIMILAR TO A 51UU A already outlined at #46. I mention OCS Old Church Slavonic see https://www.flickr.com/photos/habers...ytcheck=1which is well worth a look since the second line from the bottom and at number two from the right is the odd A I think we are looking for. The links to Hebrew in this ancient form may well form the bridge to this mixed line of script. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

1st August 2015, 12:24 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It may mean absolutely nothing at all!! From ananael@blogspot.com I QUOTE" Two swords bearing esoteric inscriptions are now on display at the Guildhall Museum in Boston, UK. They date from the 13th or 14th century and were discovered together at the bottom of the Witham River. So far the inscriptions have defied translation, though they may very well consist of magical formulas rather than words from any particular language. The use of such formulas was a common practice in the Middle Ages and early Renaissance. The famous phrase SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS, for example, does contain words that can be translated from Latin, but its function is more likely linked to that of the 5x5 magic square of Mars which its structure resembles. Officials at the Guildhall say the best guess is that the weapons were dressed in such a fashion to endow them with special magical properties such as enabling their owners to vanquish any foe and endow their swords with the life force energy of their opponents.It is probable that the "magical" inscriptions were not visible when the swords were made and that only corrosion and decay of the outer surfaces over the centuries has now allowed their secrets to be revealed. Mystery also surrounds their discovery close together at the bottom of the river near Bardney. One theory is that they may have been votive offerings to please the gods and so deliberately placed in the waters. At that time the Witham was the "motorway" of the day between Boston and Lincoln so the swords' owners may have been from this area and would certainly have been familiar with it. The swords are iron double-edged with a groove running down the greater part of the blade. One has straight hand guard of circular section and a wheel pommel. The inscription on this one reads: '+SNEXORENEXORENEXOR ENE XOREIS+'. The + probably represents the sign of the cross, as is commonly found on devices constructed by Christian magicians. The first part of the phrase, SNEXORENEXORENEXOR could be a gloss for SNEXORE NEXORE NEXOR, a reduction formula in which each subsequent word is shortened by a letter. ABRACADABRA can be written this way as a triangle in which each word loses one letter from the line above it. The reduction of the root word, in this case SNEXORE, served to concentrate its power and essence. The meaning of the keyword itself, though, could be just about anything, from poorly copied Greek or Hebrew from one of the old grimoires to a notariquon (or acronym) encoding some magical phrase or text".UNQUOTE. WHILST READERS MAY TEND TO DISAGREE WITH SOME OF THE ABOVE HYPOTHESIS ..P[ERSONALLY i AM UNSURE OF THE IDEA THAT SWORDS WERE MADE WITH A HIDDEN TEXT ON THE BLADE WHICH APPEARED AFTER THE SWORD HAD CORRODED...NO I CANT QUITE SEE THAT...HOWEVER THE OTHER GENERAL IDEAS ARE INTERESTING ... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

1st August 2015, 12:27 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is not a trace, not a hint, not a whiff of Hebrew here. If you need confirmation, Artzi Yarom is the source. There is not a trace, hint or whiff of Old Slavonic Glagolitic here, either. Having seen the most recent pics, I thought that Soares was the obvious answer. Fernando beat me to it :-)))) Pure Western Europe.