How to date a kilij, or similar sword

[harrywagner]

Thanks for the replies. I'm no expert so this could be a modern sword. If so, it is a good fake. The Damascene on the blade (photos attached) has been done the old fashioned way. What makes you think this was made recently?

Harry

[Kubur]

Hi Harry,
Just write these key words on Google or this forum: kilij pala ottoman Turkish.
You will see the shape of the hilt, the style of the grips, the quillons of the guard and the blades. Very different. Nevertheless in a recent publication in Riyad, half of their swords were of your kind and they were presented as originals... But they were just recent copies. Everybody does mistakes. But the best is to research by yourself, never believe someone in this forum without your own research. I got some silly answers on some daggers and swords that I presented and some members were completely wrong. Its just opinions by passionate collectors. But unfortunately for your sword there is no doubt...

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Harry,
Just write these key words on Google or this forum: kilij pala ottoman Turkish.
You will see the shape of the hilt, the style of the grips, the quillons of the guard and the blades. Very different. Nevertheless in a recent publication in Riyad, half of their swords were of your kind and they were presented as originals... But they were just recent copies. Everybody does mistakes. But the best is to research by yourself, never believe someone in this forum without your own research. I got some silly answers on some daggers and swords that I presented and some members were completely wrong. Its just opinions by passionate collectors. But unfortunately for your sword there is no doubt...

The recent publication in Riyad wouldn't happen to be "Weapons of the Islamic World: Swords & Armour" would it?

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

The recent publication in Riyad wouldn't happen to be "Weapons of the Islamic World: Swords & Armour" would it?

Yes, this is the publication mentioned.
A.Alnakkas and Kubur are absolutely right. This sword was made in Syria in the late 20th, not early 20th century!. it is recent reproduction, not antique. the coftgari silver overlay technique has not changed since old times, and is being made right now using the same methods.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Yes, this is the publication mentioned.
A.Alnakkas and Kubur are absolutely right. This sword was made in Syria in the late 20th, not early 20th century!. it is recent reproduction, not antique. the coftgari silver overlay technique has not changed since old times, and is being made right now using the same methods.

Thanks Alex, A. Alnakkas and Kubur. I am surprised. Someone really went to a lot of work to make this look old. I paid a nice price for it, although only a fraction of what I expect the real thing would cost.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Yes, this is the publication mentioned.
.

Wow. I am surprised. This is one of the books I rely upon regularly. I have not heard that it included modern reproductions. Is that the general consensus here? I hope you are not going to tell me I can't trust Tiri or Elgood either!

[Oliver Pinchot]

You can certainly trust Elgood

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

You can certainly trust Elgood

Harry:

Oliver emphasizes the positive, and I agree completely--Robert Elgood is a serious scholar of edged weapons.

You should check this site by searching for "Elgood" or "Tirri" to see what other members have to say about their respective books. You may be surprised.

Ian.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Wow. I am surprised. This is one of the books I rely upon regularly. I have not heard that it included modern reproductions. Is that the general consensus here? I hope you are not going to tell me I can't trust Tiri or Elgood either!

This book has many composition swords, old blades with new fittings, almost all are missdated. new swords look like book examples because this is where the "artists" get their ideas from or use authentic as models. One must rely on real life knowledge and experience, not the books alone.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ALEX

This book has many composition swords, old blades with new fittings, almost all are missdated. new swords look like book examples because this is where the "artists" get their ideas from or use authentic as models. One must rely on real life knowledge and experience, not the books alone.

Let me add that some of these swords are completely fakes.
and yes, almost all are missdated.

[harrywagner]

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Thanks for the replies. I'm no expert so this could be a modern sword. If so, it is a good fake. The Damascene on the blade (photos attached) has been done the old fashioned way. What makes you think this was made recently?

Harry

This time WITH the photos. I must be getting old. Thanks to all that have answered. I am still a little confused. I think this is a kalij from the early 20th century (last years of the Ottoman empire) and I think it was probably made in what was then called Syria or somewhere on the Arab peninsula. Am I wrong about this? Thanks again.

Harry