Dha-hmyaung

Ian · 2nd August 2015, 01:28 AM

Hi Robert:

Welcome to dha-land!

This knife comes from the Shan people of Burma and Southern Yunnan. Typically these have all silver clad or silver and ivory hilts, although other materials are found quite often (bone being the most common alternative).

The quality (percentage) of silver is variable, and most of these fittings are made up of thin silver sheet and fine silver wire on the scabbard with heavier silver sheet on the hilt. Battara could probably give you more accurate details of the methods used.

I suspect your example had an all silver covering over a wooden core into which the tang was fixed. The terminal silver piece may have been a mirror image of the piece adjacent to the blade or perhaps a small lotus bud. I will dig out some old pics and post them here for reference.

Ian.

Robert · 2nd August 2015, 07:26 AM

Hello Ian,
And thank you very much for your thoughts on this. I forgot to mention when I first posted this knife that the seller stated to me that the original hilt was in fact made of ivory and was removed for that same reason a few years ago.

When asked he would not elaborate on what happened to the ivory and would only say that he wished that it was still available. A silver hilt over a wooden core I think would be just as nice as the missing ivory one. As I have been working with silver for quite a few years it would most likely be much easier for me to make one in the manner you have described than it has been for me to locate a suitable piece of ivory to carve a new one from. I am really looking forward to seeing the photos of the silver hilted examples you have kindly offered to post. If you do not mind, would you care to offer your thoughts as to the possible age of this piece? Again, thank you again for your interest and help.

Best,
Robert

Ian · 3rd August 2015, 05:27 AM

Robert,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. Been busy with family stuff today.

Below are a few pictures of dha myaung, mostly from the Oriental Arms web site (apologies to Artzi Yarom), one or two of mine, and a few from other sources including the History of SE Asian Steel site. I have tried to show a range of styles that do not feature ivory--primarily silver clad hilts. For the point of discussion, I've classified the styles into "Burmese," "Thai," and "Lao." Even though these are probably all made by the Shan/Tai in the Golden Triangle area, those broad styles can be defined.

The first one is one of mine that has a copper/gold overlay on the wooden scabbard and hilt. These are old pictures that I posted here more than 10 years ago (sorry about the quality). I would call this one "Burmese" in style.

The next one is a fairly plain silver hilt and most likely Thai, but could be Burmese, in style. Most of the handle is wrapped in silver wire rather than silver sheet--the wire is more durable than the solid sheet, does not wrinkle or pleat, and is easier to replace if damaged.

The next two are Thai in style, each with a prominent ring (sub-hilt) about one-third of the way up the handle and a large lotus bud pommel. These pommels are quite common on silver-decorated Shan/Tai knives and swords.

The next one is very similar but has different decorations (spiral patterns) on the scabbard. It appears to be older than the other two with lotus pommels. The scabbard decoration strikes me as Lao more than Thai, but since the Lao are also ethnic Tai, and Lao styles have had a strong influence on Thai swords and knives, this may be splitting hairs.

The next one is not very old IMHO, and shows more of a Burmese style, with no sub-hilt or fancy lotus pommel.

The last one is probably second half of the 20th C, with heavily repoussed silver work, paneled "scenes," and spiral wire work near the toe of the scabbard, all of which are strong Lao features.

I hope these pics can help you with your decisions, Robert. You have a fair amount of variation in styles and complexity to choose from.

Your knife seems to have a degree of age to it. Based on others I have seen, I would say it probably has been around for about 100+/- years. It is a great pity that the ivory hilt was removed, but then it would have been much more expensive and you would not have the opportunity to bring it back to life.

Regards,

Ian.

Robert · 3rd August 2015, 07:13 PM

Ian,
Thank you very much for the photos showing of some of the many different hilt styles that I now know were used on these interesting knives/daggers. As the one that I have acquired looks to originally have had a hilt the seller has described as being made from ivory (though I am starting to believe that it could have just as easily been made of bone) I think it would be best if I replaced it with one made from one of these two materials. If I cannot find a piece of ivory suitable for this at a price that I can afford then bone will be my second choice. My next question is if I were to use ivory, what type would originally have been most commonly used on these? The same question would also apply if I were to use bone. Thank you again for your help.

Best,
Robert

Sajen · 3rd August 2015, 08:13 PM

Hello Robert,

nearly all ivory hilts I have seen were from elephant ivory.

Regards,
Detlef

Nathaniel · 4th August 2015, 06:51 AM

Hello Robert,

Thank you for sharing. That is correct this would have had a straight cylindrical ivory handle probably 4-5 inches long. There are some alternative ivory that knife makers used made out of different plastics. Or you could even look to see if you could use some type of antler, horn or bone. Or even just put some type of wood on there..you could even pick one with a slight yellow tinge to it so it would look like the aged ivory...the lines in the wood might even look like some of the age cracks you see in ivory as well.

ariel · 4th August 2015, 07:15 AM

There is a complete similar " Dha dagger" with bone handle and silver scabbard and pommel on e-bay now for $65.

Unless you wanted to buy an amusement project, I wouldn't see much reason in acquiring a broken thing and investing money and a lot of time to give it a semblance of authenticity. Thai professionals will always do a better job.

My 2 cents.

3rd August 2015, 05:27 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Robert, Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. Been busy with family stuff today. Below are a few pictures of dha myaung, mostly from the Oriental Arms web site (apologies to Artzi Yarom), one or two of mine, and a few from other sources including the History of SE Asian Steel site. I have tried to show a range of styles that do not feature ivory--primarily silver clad hilts. For the point of discussion, I've classified the styles into "Burmese," "Thai," and "Lao." Even though these are probably all made by the Shan/Tai in the Golden Triangle area, those broad styles can be defined. The first one is one of mine that has a copper/gold overlay on the wooden scabbard and hilt. These are old pictures that I posted here more than 10 years ago (sorry about the quality). I would call this one "Burmese" in style. The next one is a fairly plain silver hilt and most likely Thai, but could be Burmese, in style. Most of the handle is wrapped in silver wire rather than silver sheet--the wire is more durable than the solid sheet, does not wrinkle or pleat, and is easier to replace if damaged. The next two are Thai in style, each with a prominent ring (sub-hilt) about one-third of the way up the handle and a large lotus bud pommel. These pommels are quite common on silver-decorated Shan/Tai knives and swords. The next one is very similar but has different decorations (spiral patterns) on the scabbard. It appears to be older than the other two with lotus pommels. The scabbard decoration strikes me as Lao more than Thai, but since the Lao are also ethnic Tai, and Lao styles have had a strong influence on Thai swords and knives, this may be splitting hairs. The next one is not very old IMHO, and shows more of a Burmese style, with no sub-hilt or fancy lotus pommel. The last one is probably second half of the 20th C, with heavily repoussed silver work, paneled "scenes," and spiral wire work near the toe of the scabbard, all of which are strong Lao features. I hope these pics can help you with your decisions, Robert. You have a fair amount of variation in styles and complexity to choose from. Your knife seems to have a degree of age to it. Based on others I have seen, I would say it probably has been around for about 100+/- years. It is a great pity that the ivory hilt was removed, but then it would have been much more expensive and you would not have the opportunity to bring it back to life. Regards, Ian. Attached Images

2nd August 2015, 01:28 AM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Hi Robert: Welcome to dha-land! This knife comes from the Shan people of Burma and Southern Yunnan. Typically these have all silver clad or silver and ivory hilts, although other materials are found quite often (bone being the most common alternative). The quality (percentage) of silver is variable, and most of these fittings are made up of thin silver sheet and fine silver wire on the scabbard with heavier silver sheet on the hilt. Battara could probably give you more accurate details of the methods used. I suspect your example had an all silver covering over a wooden core into which the tang was fixed. The terminal silver piece may have been a mirror image of the piece adjacent to the blade or perhaps a small lotus bud. I will dig out some old pics and post them here for reference. Ian.

2nd August 2015, 07:26 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Ian, And thank you very much for your thoughts on this. I forgot to mention when I first posted this knife that the seller stated to me that the original hilt was in fact made of ivory and was removed for that same reason a few years ago. When asked he would not elaborate on what happened to the ivory and would only say that he wished that it was still available. A silver hilt over a wooden core I think would be just as nice as the missing ivory one. As I have been working with silver for quite a few years it would most likely be much easier for me to make one in the manner you have described than it has been for me to locate a suitable piece of ivory to carve a new one from. I am really looking forward to seeing the photos of the silver hilted examples you have kindly offered to post. If you do not mind, would you care to offer your thoughts as to the possible age of this piece? Again, thank you again for your interest and help. Best, Robert

3rd August 2015, 07:13 PM	#4
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Ian, Thank you very much for the photos showing of some of the many different hilt styles that I now know were used on these interesting knives/daggers. As the one that I have acquired looks to originally have had a hilt the seller has described as being made from ivory (though I am starting to believe that it could have just as easily been made of bone) I think it would be best if I replaced it with one made from one of these two materials. If I cannot find a piece of ivory suitable for this at a price that I can afford then bone will be my second choice. My next question is if I were to use ivory, what type would originally have been most commonly used on these? The same question would also apply if I were to use bone. Thank you again for your help. Best, Robert

3rd August 2015, 08:13 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,164	Hello Robert, nearly all ivory hilts I have seen were from elephant ivory. Regards, Detlef

4th August 2015, 06:51 AM	#6
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Hello Robert, Thank you for sharing. That is correct this would have had a straight cylindrical ivory handle probably 4-5 inches long. There are some alternative ivory that knife makers used made out of different plastics. Or you could even look to see if you could use some type of antler, horn or bone. Or even just put some type of wood on there..you could even pick one with a slight yellow tinge to it so it would look like the aged ivory...the lines in the wood might even look like some of the age cracks you see in ivory as well.

4th August 2015, 07:15 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is a complete similar " Dha dagger" with bone handle and silver scabbard and pommel on e-bay now for $65. Unless you wanted to buy an amusement project, I wouldn't see much reason in acquiring a broken thing and investing money and a lot of time to give it a semblance of authenticity. Thai professionals will always do a better job. My 2 cents.