Anglo-Indian army swords

sirupate · 1st August 2015, 12:06 PM

This is quite a good little PDF on Officers 1796 LCS

kronckew · 1st August 2015, 06:17 PM

ref: post 31 above.

now i know what my affy short sword with the solingen trade blade looked like before it was captured and turned into a shorty.

mrcjgscott · 1st August 2015, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirupate

That kind of fullering/groves reminded me of one of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559

That is a very impressive piece. I presume that it is held in Nepal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirupate

This is quite a good little PDF on Officers 1796 LCS

Although I cannot see the name of the articles author, it would appear to be written by Richard Dellar?

Richard is probably the leading scholar working on British cavalry swords at the moment. I can thoroughly recommend his latest book:

“The British Cavalry Sword 1788 – 1912, Some New Perspectives”

Kind regards,

Chris

sirupate · 1st August 2015, 07:14 PM

Hi Chris, it is in the National Museum, the curator (Bhess) took me around, thanks for the heads up on the book, I'll definitely give it a shout, all the best Simon

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2015, 07:37 PM

Hi Chris,
My note of that blade being Solingen was very much 'off the cuff' as these triple fuller type types are characteristic of the 'trade' blades that were produced there from 18th century and well through the 19th (much like the one Kronckew has shown in the example he entered here). However, you are quite right, the blade could well be an Indian copy.
It does not seem to me that the Indian smiths were making these kinds of copied blades quite as early as this type sword as suggested by the hilt.

Actually Solingen blades were quite regularly into India, particularly in the western regions via Malabar and Mahrattas, and of course via many of the EIC key regions and presidencies via the flow of these into England. In England, the constant influx of German blades remained a bit of a standard.

Thank you for noting the superb work by Richard Dellar, "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912", in my opinion one of the most significant works on regulation cavalry swords to date. It delves into the history of many of these well known forms through research and study including those who actually used them, rather the exact way I deeply enjoy studying these weapons whenever possible.

Simon thank you for adding the PDF and example of the tulwar with profoundly heavy blade, one we often regard as the much debated 'tegha'.

Chris, I also heartily agree with your note on some swords we have had for so long we think their tales are finished, Like you say, those old swords from more years ago I collected were indeed my friends, and very much my guides into exciting forays into history!!
Now, many years later, and with a 'bit' more knowledge, it is amazing how much more they have to share with me.
We NEVER know it all, the cases are never closed, and the search remains never ending. It is the pure joy and adventure of collecting and studying arms.

I still have not found the examples of these type langets, nor the general look of that M1796 light cav stirrup hilt. I feel pretty confident that its form corresponds to those which might have been selected by EIC officers though. It seems to resemble some of those I recall which were to particular cavalry regiments, remembering that officers swords were private purchase just as were EIC types.

All best,
Jim

sirupate · 1st August 2015, 08:25 PM

Thanks for the added info Jim, what does 'tegha' mean and refer to? all the best Simon

sirupate · 1st August 2015, 08:34 PM

Here is the rest of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559, the Tulwar is on the top left

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2015, 08:43 PM

The word 'tegha' seems to be another of the dialectic Indian terms used for a sword type, in this case, I believe (by recollection) to refer to a very heavy blade and slightly curved sword. I think it is noted in "The Indian Sword" (Rawson, 1967) as well as Pant (Lahore, 1980, "Indian Arms andArmour")
Thank you for the images of this grouping, impressive!
Refresh my memory please on Drabya Shah, where was he situated?

sirupate · 1st August 2015, 10:28 PM

Hi Jim, thanks for the info on Tegha, Drabya Shah was the first of the Shah's of Gorkha in Nepal, when Drabya Shah killed Khadka Raja in personnel combat, there is a nick in the beam of ceiling from Drabya Shah's killing cut on Khadka Raja's head which split it in two in the Palace in Gorkha, which Lt. Col. Cross was able to see, as he was mistaken for a Brahmin and allowed in.
It is quite a climb just over 3000 feet, which I did in 2000, but worth it for the view alone, and good prep for the trekking!

mrcjgscott · 2nd August 2015, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Chris, I also heartily agree with your note on some swords we have had for so long we think their tales are finished, Like you say, those old swords from more years ago I collected were indeed my friends, and very much my guides into exciting forays into history!!
Now, many years later, and with a 'bit' more knowledge, it is amazing how much more they have to share with me.
We NEVER know it all, the cases are never closed, and the search remains never ending. It is the pure joy and adventure of collecting and studying arms.

All best,
Jim

Thank you for the clarification on the importation of German blades into India Jim. It seems NOTHING should be taken for granted with arms and armour!

As you say, it is always refreshing when an old piece in your collection can yield new information, even when you think all the threads have been unravelled...

I know researchers who do occasionally make grandiose statements about new discoveries, only to find, when digging a little deeper, that such proclamations are not all they are cracked up to be.

The field of study doesn't matter, I am sure such things happen across the spectrum when undertaking research. We must stick to the facts, and judge each case on its own merits. As you say, there is always more information to be gleaned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirupate

I didn't realise Mole was contracted to Wilkinson for some swords.

Wilkinson and Mole had a long history of cooperation, Mole running a very close second to Wilkinson until Wilkinson finally bought them out in 1920.

mrcjgscott · 2nd August 2015, 05:43 PM

Many thanks for posting that example Jens. I am very much looking forward to Elgood's forthcoming work.

Here are two more Indian Infantry swords with British influenced hilts, similar to the one posted by A.alnakkas earlier in the thread.

Both have subtle differences, but both carry an European style coat of arms in the central guard cartouche. I presume typical of the many Indian states, although I have no idea to which these swords belonged.

Note the horn grip and tulwar style scabbard on the bottom example.

Silver John · 2nd August 2015, 08:40 PM

Hi Chris,

I don't know if it'll be any help identifying where the sword came from, but I believe the six characters on the guard in the top picture are; Ri Ya S Ta Ha Ta(long a).

I'm not sure on the fifth character 'Ha', as it's a little blurred, but the others are a pretty good match to my eye.

1st August 2015, 06:17 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	ref: post 31 above. now i know what my affy short sword with the solingen trade blade looked like before it was captured and turned into a shorty. Attached Images

1st August 2015, 08:34 PM	#7
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Here is the rest of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559, the Tulwar is on the top left Attached Images

1st August 2015, 10:28 PM	#9
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hi Jim, thanks for the info on Tegha, Drabya Shah was the first of the Shah's of Gorkha in Nepal, when Drabya Shah killed Khadka Raja in personnel combat, there is a nick in the beam of ceiling from Drabya Shah's killing cut on Khadka Raja's head which split it in two in the Palace in Gorkha, which Lt. Col. Cross was able to see, as he was mistaken for a Brahmin and allowed in. It is quite a climb just over 3000 feet, which I did in 2000, but worth it for the view alone, and good prep for the trekking! Attached Images

2nd August 2015, 05:43 PM	#11
mrcjgscott Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 189	Many thanks for posting that example Jens. I am very much looking forward to Elgood's forthcoming work. Here are two more Indian Infantry swords with British influenced hilts, similar to the one posted by A.alnakkas earlier in the thread. Both have subtle differences, but both carry an European style coat of arms in the central guard cartouche. I presume typical of the many Indian states, although I have no idea to which these swords belonged. Note the horn grip and tulwar style scabbard on the bottom example. Attached Images

2nd August 2015, 08:40 PM	#12
Silver John Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 31	Hi Chris, I don't know if it'll be any help identifying where the sword came from, but I believe the six characters on the guard in the top picture are; Ri Ya S Ta Ha Ta(long a). I'm not sure on the fifth character 'Ha', as it's a little blurred, but the others are a pretty good match to my eye. Attached Images

1st August 2015, 07:14 PM	#4
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hi Chris, it is in the National Museum, the curator (Bhess) took me around, thanks for the heads up on the book, I'll definitely give it a shout, all the best Simon

1st August 2015, 07:37 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Hi Chris, My note of that blade being Solingen was very much 'off the cuff' as these triple fuller type types are characteristic of the 'trade' blades that were produced there from 18th century and well through the 19th (much like the one Kronckew has shown in the example he entered here). However, you are quite right, the blade could well be an Indian copy. It does not seem to me that the Indian smiths were making these kinds of copied blades quite as early as this type sword as suggested by the hilt. Actually Solingen blades were quite regularly into India, particularly in the western regions via Malabar and Mahrattas, and of course via many of the EIC key regions and presidencies via the flow of these into England. In England, the constant influx of German blades remained a bit of a standard. Thank you for noting the superb work by Richard Dellar, "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912", in my opinion one of the most significant works on regulation cavalry swords to date. It delves into the history of many of these well known forms through research and study including those who actually used them, rather the exact way I deeply enjoy studying these weapons whenever possible. Simon thank you for adding the PDF and example of the tulwar with profoundly heavy blade, one we often regard as the much debated 'tegha'. Chris, I also heartily agree with your note on some swords we have had for so long we think their tales are finished, Like you say, those old swords from more years ago I collected were indeed my friends, and very much my guides into exciting forays into history!! Now, many years later, and with a 'bit' more knowledge, it is amazing how much more they have to share with me. We NEVER know it all, the cases are never closed, and the search remains never ending. It is the pure joy and adventure of collecting and studying arms. I still have not found the examples of these type langets, nor the general look of that M1796 light cav stirrup hilt. I feel pretty confident that its form corresponds to those which might have been selected by EIC officers though. It seems to resemble some of those I recall which were to particular cavalry regiments, remembering that officers swords were private purchase just as were EIC types. All best, Jim

1st August 2015, 08:25 PM	#6
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Thanks for the added info Jim, what does 'tegha' mean and refer to? all the best Simon

1st August 2015, 08:43 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	The word 'tegha' seems to be another of the dialectic Indian terms used for a sword type, in this case, I believe (by recollection) to refer to a very heavy blade and slightly curved sword. I think it is noted in "The Indian Sword" (Rawson, 1967) as well as Pant (Lahore, 1980, "Indian Arms andArmour") Thank you for the images of this grouping, impressive! Refresh my memory please on Drabya Shah, where was he situated?