Anglo-Indian army swords

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Lovely sword Chris, but would this be classified as a 1796 type? I'd be very interested to hear what the other experts opinions are.

Thank you Simon.

I actually said "1796 style" (not that it really matters)

The hilt is certainly based on that design, possibly for an officer of the East India Company.

I am always happy to hear other opinions.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Thank you Simon.

I actually said "1796 style" (not that it really matters)

The hilt is certainly based on that design, possibly for an officer of the East India Company.

I am always happy to hear other opinions.

Chris, this is a beautiful sword, and what appears to be a Solingen blade, probably end of 18th to c. 1815. The M1796 light cavalry stirrup hilts were among the most widely varied of the British 'regulation' patterns. This was due to this of course being the first 'officially' recognized pattern date, and at this time there were a good number of makers all responding to orders from officers, often with their own design and innovations.

I recall when I first collected British cavalry patterns many years ago, one challenging field was variations of the M1796 lt cavalry sabre for officers. The troopers swords were pretty standard, but officers had many nuanced differences in the backstrap, langets, and clearly the grips....often there were variations in blades as well.

It seems I have seen this langet style somewhere, and it very well may have bee an EIC selection. If I can find some of the data I will add it here, there was some very obscure and brief articles back in the 70s it seems.
It is unfortunate that EIC swords were never marked, nor it seems usually inscribed (none I have seen personally at least).

I agree the grip does seem bone but hard to say, these officers had access to good ivory work in the EIC regions so that must be considered.

[mrcjgscott]

Hello Jim,

Many thanks indeed for chiming in on this one.

I have always suspected, as have most of the people who have handled this particular sword, that the blade was of Indian manufacture.

Whilst the blade itself is sound and still holding a wicked edge, the finish, especially around the fullers, isn't really up to the standard I have come to expect from a Solingen product of that era.

Is there any particular indication that makes you think it is Solingen rather than Indian? Obviously their output during this period was prodigious (one only has to consider the amount of "J.J. Runkell" examples encountered) but I had no idea that they might be importing blades into India also.

It is always good to revaluate things from time to time, especially those things which you have had so long that you have rather written them off as "knowing it all"! So I thank you for making me think twice about this old friend of mine.

As you say, the dearth of markings on early EIC blades is something of a handicap, and does leave interpretation up to combinations of other features. But perhaps that is also part of the fun?

I shall take some better images of the hilt, then perhaps, we might be able to tie that down slightly better!

All the best,

Chris

[sirupate]

That kind of fullering/groves reminded me of one of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559

[sirupate]

This is quite a good little PDF on Officers 1796 LCS

[kronckew]

ref: post 31 above.

now i know what my affy short sword with the solingen trade blade looked like before it was captured and turned into a shorty.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

That kind of fullering/groves reminded me of one of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559

That is a very impressive piece. I presume that it is held in Nepal?

Originally Posted by sirupate

This is quite a good little PDF on Officers 1796 LCS

Although I cannot see the name of the articles author, it would appear to be written by Richard Dellar?

Richard is probably the leading scholar working on British cavalry swords at the moment. I can thoroughly recommend his latest book:

“The British Cavalry Sword 1788 – 1912, Some New Perspectives”

Kind regards,

Chris

[sirupate]

Hi Chris, it is in the National Museum, the curator (Bhess) took me around, thanks for the heads up on the book, I'll definitely give it a shout, all the best Simon

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Chris,
My note of that blade being Solingen was very much 'off the cuff' as these triple fuller type types are characteristic of the 'trade' blades that were produced there from 18th century and well through the 19th (much like the one Kronckew has shown in the example he entered here). However, you are quite right, the blade could well be an Indian copy.
It does not seem to me that the Indian smiths were making these kinds of copied blades quite as early as this type sword as suggested by the hilt.

Actually Solingen blades were quite regularly into India, particularly in the western regions via Malabar and Mahrattas, and of course via many of the EIC key regions and presidencies via the flow of these into England. In England, the constant influx of German blades remained a bit of a standard.

Thank you for noting the superb work by Richard Dellar, "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912", in my opinion one of the most significant works on regulation cavalry swords to date. It delves into the history of many of these well known forms through research and study including those who actually used them, rather the exact way I deeply enjoy studying these weapons whenever possible.

Simon thank you for adding the PDF and example of the tulwar with profoundly heavy blade, one we often regard as the much debated 'tegha'.

Chris, I also heartily agree with your note on some swords we have had for so long we think their tales are finished, Like you say, those old swords from more years ago I collected were indeed my friends, and very much my guides into exciting forays into history!!
Now, many years later, and with a 'bit' more knowledge, it is amazing how much more they have to share with me.
We NEVER know it all, the cases are never closed, and the search remains never ending. It is the pure joy and adventure of collecting and studying arms.

I still have not found the examples of these type langets, nor the general look of that M1796 light cav stirrup hilt. I feel pretty confident that its form corresponds to those which might have been selected by EIC officers though. It seems to resemble some of those I recall which were to particular cavalry regiments, remembering that officers swords were private purchase just as were EIC types.

All best,
Jim