Anglo-Indian army swords

[mrcjgscott]

Here are some images of the 1796 style officers sword I mentioned to Jim on the tulwar thread. This is one of my personal favourites, and it survived the cull of my collection, and several tempting offers from fellow enthusiasts!

Apologies for the photo quality, these are around 10 years old!

[Shakethetrees]

Great looking saber!

It appears to have a bone grip, right?

[sirupate]

Lovely sword Chris, but would this be classified as a 1796 type? I'd be very interested to hear what the other experts opinions are.

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by sirupate

Lovely sword Chris, but would this be classified as a 1796 type? I'd be very interested to hear what the other experts opinions are.

Thank you Simon.

I actually said "1796 style" (not that it really matters)

The hilt is certainly based on that design, possibly for an officer of the East India Company.

I am always happy to hear other opinions.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Thank you Simon.

I actually said "1796 style" (not that it really matters)

The hilt is certainly based on that design, possibly for an officer of the East India Company.

I am always happy to hear other opinions.

Chris, this is a beautiful sword, and what appears to be a Solingen blade, probably end of 18th to c. 1815. The M1796 light cavalry stirrup hilts were among the most widely varied of the British 'regulation' patterns. This was due to this of course being the first 'officially' recognized pattern date, and at this time there were a good number of makers all responding to orders from officers, often with their own design and innovations.

I recall when I first collected British cavalry patterns many years ago, one challenging field was variations of the M1796 lt cavalry sabre for officers. The troopers swords were pretty standard, but officers had many nuanced differences in the backstrap, langets, and clearly the grips....often there were variations in blades as well.

It seems I have seen this langet style somewhere, and it very well may have bee an EIC selection. If I can find some of the data I will add it here, there was some very obscure and brief articles back in the 70s it seems.
It is unfortunate that EIC swords were never marked, nor it seems usually inscribed (none I have seen personally at least).

I agree the grip does seem bone but hard to say, these officers had access to good ivory work in the EIC regions so that must be considered.

[mrcjgscott]

Hello Jim,

Many thanks indeed for chiming in on this one.

I have always suspected, as have most of the people who have handled this particular sword, that the blade was of Indian manufacture.

Whilst the blade itself is sound and still holding a wicked edge, the finish, especially around the fullers, isn't really up to the standard I have come to expect from a Solingen product of that era.

Is there any particular indication that makes you think it is Solingen rather than Indian? Obviously their output during this period was prodigious (one only has to consider the amount of "J.J. Runkell" examples encountered) but I had no idea that they might be importing blades into India also.

It is always good to revaluate things from time to time, especially those things which you have had so long that you have rather written them off as "knowing it all"! So I thank you for making me think twice about this old friend of mine.

As you say, the dearth of markings on early EIC blades is something of a handicap, and does leave interpretation up to combinations of other features. But perhaps that is also part of the fun?

I shall take some better images of the hilt, then perhaps, we might be able to tie that down slightly better!

All the best,

Chris

[sirupate]

That kind of fullering/groves reminded me of one of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

It appears to have a bone grip, right?

I believe so Shakethetrees, although I could not tell you from which animal it came.

[Jens Nordlunde]

In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur".
A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached).
In the text to the plate Hendley writes.
"1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs.
Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh."

[sirupate]

What a beauty Jens

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur".
A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached).
In the text to the plate Hendley writes.
"1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs.
Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh."

[Silver John]

Hi Chris & Jens,

I thought I'd posted up a crude translation last night, but it's either still waiting for a Mods approval or it's been lost in the ether, so I'll try again.

I don't know if it'll be any help in identifying the origins, but the six characters on the top picture look like: Ri Ya S Ta Ha Taa.

Not sure about the 5th character as it's a bit blurred.

On the other example. The numbers are 1 and 4. The two characters look like Ga and Ja though there are additional marks on them (vowel diacritics? that I don't recognise)

[Jens Nordlunde]

You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens

[sirupate]

Some lovely swords you have there Chris, thank you for the info about Mole being bought out by Wilkinson

[mrcjgscott]

Originally Posted by Silver John

I don't know if it'll be any help in identifying the origins, but the six characters on the top picture look like: Ri Ya S Ta Ha Taa.

Not sure about the 5th character as it's a bit blurred.

On the other example. The numbers are 1 and 4. The two characters look like Ga and Ja though there are additional marks on them (vowel diacritics? that I don't recognise)

Hi Silver John,

Many thanks for posting these up, most interesting.I shall give some thought to what your translation might signify.

One of the hilts shows some letters under the crest. I will tidy this up a little and take some better quality images, as this might reveal the state of origin with any luck.

I envy your ability with deciphering the characters, I have tried many times to get my head around it, but to no avail. Your efforts are much appreciated!

Originally Posted by sirupate

Some lovely swords you have there Chris, thank you for the info about Mole being bought out by Wilkinson

Thank you Simon,

Some of them took a long time to track down.

RWL wrote a history of Wilkinson a few years back, I can try and find the details if it might be of interest?

Kind regards,

Chris

[mrcjgscott]

Here are examples of the sword carried by the 33rd Cavalry.

The officers sword utilizes the 1821 "Honeysuckle" style guard, and the lower sword, for troopers, is based upon the 1908 cavalry sword.

If memory serves, the troopers sword was produced by B. Boota Singh and Son, of Rawalpindi. They obviously held several Indian Government contracts, as they also produced high quality kukri during WW1.

[mrcjgscott]

Another shot, alongside a standard British 1908.

[Silver John]

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

One of the hilts shows some letters under the crest. I will tidy this up a little and take some better quality images, as this might reveal the state of origin with any luck.

That would be interesting to see.

I do not have enough knowledge on the topic to say with any confidence, but I believe the inscription is Marathi.

When I'm attempting these translations, I write down what I think it says and then type that into a program that converts roman alphabet into a range of Indian sub continent scripts. If I get a match, I know I'm getting better! The first character, Ri, only looks like that when I select the Marathi option. It is different in Hindi, still devanagari script, just a different way of putting it together. All the other characters remain the same however.

Perhaps this is a hint that it came from Maharashtra state? Or somewhere nearby?

[Silver John]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens

Very sorry if my last post came across as rude Jens, re-reading it I should have phrased it differently and started the post with "I think..." I am very new to these translations and still have a great deal to learn!

I also thought thought another possible translation of the 5th character (from the first pic) could be Dhaa?