Another Huge Sword

Valjhun · 23rd December 2005, 12:46 PM

What exactly is that and wich period?

EBAY LINK

Andrew · 23rd December 2005, 03:31 PM

It's a Persian Qajar revival piece. These are 19th century reproductions of earlier styles. Not normally made for use.

Welcome to the forum.

ariel · 23rd December 2005, 03:52 PM

Usually, I admire Artzi's taste and choice very much.
This particular acquisition left me speechless: Qajar revival swords are , in my opinion, nonfunctional, ceremonial, poor quality, tasteless and downright ugly

.
Does he know something about this sword I don't?

Or, did he get a special request from a customer who collects poor quality, tasteless ceremonial swords?

wolviex · 24th December 2005, 02:23 PM

I exactly understand what you mean Ariel, and if I was collecting Persian arms I would like to buy only those best examples from Safavid period. Those from Qajar times are indeed quite poor - super perfect and high quality steel cut is replaces by not perfect etching, damasce steel by poor quality and fast getting rusty steel, the beautiful ornaments and great caligraphy by something less perfect.... but! Yes there is one but. Let me quote prof. Tadeusz Majda's words from his catalogue of "Persian Art 1779-1924":

"(...)There is no doubt that Persian art of Qajar period is marked by its times - times of riots, wars, collapse of economy, influences of European countries and European arts, not always based on best sources. But it still has its special charm, characteristic with its simplicity, and what is more important, it reflects art taste of court, townspeoples, more than during Safavids rules. (...)"

In further words, professor indicate mass production, market for European countries and America, contacts and orders from outside countries, etc., everything that changed the art and market in Persia. At the same time artists were trying to continue everything what Safavids and past generations created, so they purposely imitated patterns and art from passed centuries.

And take a look at Europe in the 19th century, where we can observe the same process - neogothic, imitates of medieval, 16th and 17th centuries weapons, very often made of poor quality metals - everything what could remind passed centuries. People of this time felt they were missing those all things that passed away. So from this piont o view all these buildings, arts and other things of this period are somehow charming too

. It's a history and like everything it's deep motivated in time and period of its origin, aswell as in people that lived then.

Regards!

ariel · 24th December 2005, 03:38 PM

Perhaps, you are right....
The 19th century was a time when swords and daggers started to lose their practical value; firearms became so efficient that the military tactics had to be revised. Cold steel became decorational and ceremonial and, as a result, became either unnecessarily ornate (Caucasian weapons) or of limited quality. Yes, there still were some fabulous blades produced and there were some "old time" exploits (The Light Brigade-type), but the writing was on the wall.
Less industrial societies lagged behind in this regard and Moro weapons, for example, were still of high standard but any army aiming to become competitive by necessity abandoned the chivalrous swordplay and concentrated on firearms.
Still, Qajar swords strike me as particularly ungainly and of exceptionally low quality and appeal. There tin-plate blades with crude etching, cheap and garish decoration and exaggerated size just scream "Phony!"

Valjhun · 19th January 2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Usually, I admire Artzi's taste and choice very much.
This particular acquisition left me speechless: Qajar revival swords are , in my opinion, nonfunctional, ceremonial, poor quality, tasteless and downright ugly

.
Does he know something about this sword I don't?

Or, did he get a special request from a customer who collects poor quality, tasteless ceremonial swords?

Ariel,

Reviewing the items he bought, I can tell you that I admire his taste also... But if you take a look at his shop, you will find a similar example wich is for sale (acutally already on hold) for a considerable higher sum... I guess that Mr. Artzi, despite his incomparable taste, is good at math too..

Oriental-Arms · 19th January 2006, 06:55 PM

I refrained from commenting on this thread, but since it was brought up again, I wish to post a short remark:

Ariel, Thank you for your compliments. I am afraid we do not share the same taste in swords. I have examined considerable number of these ”ugly” revival swords. They have their beauty, they represent a certain tradition and culture and quite many of them are forged from very good steel, in spite of their main use as ceremonial. I am not sure as to this specific sword as I did not receive it yet, but when I do I will gladly post my opinion on it. Above all, many collectors collect them and regard them as beautiful.

I will however refrain from commenting on Valjhun last post.

Rick · 19th January 2006, 07:25 PM

Mr. Valjuhn , I find your last remark to be uncalled for and in poor taste .
You have a PM .

Valjhun · 19th January 2006, 09:15 PM

It was not my intention to be rude and please don't consider my previous post to be offensive...

My appologise to Mr. Yarom and to all of you, but it seems that you all have missunderstood my previous thought. I've made only an observation and Mr Rick, I certainly haven't interferred with Mr. Yaroms personal business, wich besides isn't any personal but rather pubblic on a verry well known website. I'm also happy that I was his client many times in the past and I was always happy with the stuff I've got, 'cos he is one of the few honest dealers out there. Further I also consider him a great expert about oriental arms and I often think why he does not write a book wich would be verry appreciated among us, rather novice collectors. Certainly worth buying instead of some other expensive stuff with glossy paper, blurry photos and missleading descriptions from a "venerable" guru-connosieur.

I've made only an observation about the real value of taht blade, wich everyone here can make. Besides, to buy things you sell for a resonable price, with the intention of making profit, is exactly what traders do. Beeing a proffessional seller mayself, I'm certainly not considering that shamefull nor anybody should consider it shamefull. The item in questin was legally bought on an open auction and every single one of us could bid on it and Mr. yaroms shop is also open to all visitors. I'm not divulgating any top secret data here. Again, I just made an observation, that the sword is more valuable of that it was payed for, to alleviate Mr. Ariels ammusement. What's really wrong with that?

ariel · 20th January 2006, 01:55 PM

Having re-read my original comment and Artzi's reply, I am blushing.... I tried to be funny but it obviously came across as quite rude. I apologize.

We do have different tastes in arms and we all are entitled to our opinions ( I still do not like Qajar swords!) but there is no reason to be sarcastic and smart-alecky.
Once again, my apologies. I'll try to watch myself in the future.

23rd December 2005, 12:46 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Another Huge Sword What exactly is that and wich period? EBAY LINK

23rd December 2005, 03:52 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Usually, I admire Artzi's taste and choice very much. This particular acquisition left me speechless: Qajar revival swords are , in my opinion, nonfunctional, ceremonial, poor quality, tasteless and downright ugly . Does he know something about this sword I don't? Or, did he get a special request from a customer who collects poor quality, tasteless ceremonial swords? Last edited by ariel; 23rd December 2005 at 09:28 PM.

19th January 2006, 06:55 PM	#7
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Ugly revival sword I refrained from commenting on this thread, but since it was brought up again, I wish to post a short remark: Ariel, Thank you for your compliments. I am afraid we do not share the same taste in swords. I have examined considerable number of these ”ugly” revival swords. They have their beauty, they represent a certain tradition and culture and quite many of them are forged from very good steel, in spite of their main use as ceremonial. I am not sure as to this specific sword as I did not receive it yet, but when I do I will gladly post my opinion on it. Above all, many collectors collect them and regard them as beautiful. I will however refrain from commenting on Valjhun last post.

19th January 2006, 09:15 PM	#9
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	It was not my intention to be rude and please don't consider my previous post to be offensive... My appologise to Mr. Yarom and to all of you, but it seems that you all have missunderstood my previous thought. I've made only an observation and Mr Rick, I certainly haven't interferred with Mr. Yaroms personal business, wich besides isn't any personal but rather pubblic on a verry well known website. I'm also happy that I was his client many times in the past and I was always happy with the stuff I've got, 'cos he is one of the few honest dealers out there. Further I also consider him a great expert about oriental arms and I often think why he does not write a book wich would be verry appreciated among us, rather novice collectors. Certainly worth buying instead of some other expensive stuff with glossy paper, blurry photos and missleading descriptions from a "venerable" guru-connosieur. I've made only an observation about the real value of taht blade, wich everyone here can make. Besides, to buy things you sell for a resonable price, with the intention of making profit, is exactly what traders do. Beeing a proffessional seller mayself, I'm certainly not considering that shamefull nor anybody should consider it shamefull. The item in questin was legally bought on an open auction and every single one of us could bid on it and Mr. yaroms shop is also open to all visitors. I'm not divulgating any top secret data here. Again, I just made an observation, that the sword is more valuable of that it was payed for, to alleviate Mr. Ariels ammusement. What's really wrong with that? Last edited by Valjhun; 19th January 2006 at 09:36 PM.

23rd December 2005, 03:31 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	It's a Persian Qajar revival piece. These are 19th century reproductions of earlier styles. Not normally made for use. Welcome to the forum.

24th December 2005, 02:23 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	I exactly understand what you mean Ariel, and if I was collecting Persian arms I would like to buy only those best examples from Safavid period. Those from Qajar times are indeed quite poor - super perfect and high quality steel cut is replaces by not perfect etching, damasce steel by poor quality and fast getting rusty steel, the beautiful ornaments and great caligraphy by something less perfect.... but! Yes there is one but. Let me quote prof. Tadeusz Majda's words from his catalogue of "Persian Art 1779-1924": "(...)There is no doubt that Persian art of Qajar period is marked by its times - times of riots, wars, collapse of economy, influences of European countries and European arts, not always based on best sources. But it still has its special charm, characteristic with its simplicity, and what is more important, it reflects art taste of court, townspeoples, more than during Safavids rules. (...)" In further words, professor indicate mass production, market for European countries and America, contacts and orders from outside countries, etc., everything that changed the art and market in Persia. At the same time artists were trying to continue everything what Safavids and past generations created, so they purposely imitated patterns and art from passed centuries. And take a look at Europe in the 19th century, where we can observe the same process - neogothic, imitates of medieval, 16th and 17th centuries weapons, very often made of poor quality metals - everything what could remind passed centuries. People of this time felt they were missing those all things that passed away. So from this piont o view all these buildings, arts and other things of this period are somehow charming too . It's a history and like everything it's deep motivated in time and period of its origin, aswell as in people that lived then. Regards!

24th December 2005, 03:38 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Perhaps, you are right.... The 19th century was a time when swords and daggers started to lose their practical value; firearms became so efficient that the military tactics had to be revised. Cold steel became decorational and ceremonial and, as a result, became either unnecessarily ornate (Caucasian weapons) or of limited quality. Yes, there still were some fabulous blades produced and there were some "old time" exploits (The Light Brigade-type), but the writing was on the wall. Less industrial societies lagged behind in this regard and Moro weapons, for example, were still of high standard but any army aiming to become competitive by necessity abandoned the chivalrous swordplay and concentrated on firearms. Still, Qajar swords strike me as particularly ungainly and of exceptionally low quality and appeal. There tin-plate blades with crude etching, cheap and garish decoration and exaggerated size just scream "Phony!"

19th January 2006, 07:25 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,287	Mr. Valjuhn , I find your last remark to be uncalled for and in poor taste . You have a PM .

20th January 2006, 01:55 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Having re-read my original comment and Artzi's reply, I am blushing.... I tried to be funny but it obviously came across as quite rude. I apologize. We do have different tastes in arms and we all are entitled to our opinions ( I still do not like Qajar swords!) but there is no reason to be sarcastic and smart-alecky. Once again, my apologies. I'll try to watch myself in the future.