Research

[Jim McDougall]

Jens, this has been a wonderful thread, and what a brilliant and thought provoking idea to start it! Not only has it given me, but clearly many others out there, pause to think about what we do here, and why.

It is amazing to see very deeply stated views and perspective as being shared by all of us, helping us understand each other better, our views, and perhaps even ourselves. This reminds us that we are all actually quite different in our approaches to the study of arms, but that clearly the one common denominator is the passion for them.

I must note that Stu's mention that many of us are indeed getting up there in years is poignant and quite true. Like many of you included, I have spent most of my life studying arms in many ways. While I am certainly far from an academic or scholar, my study has been passionately undertaken with the sincere desire to learn, and to share what I have learned in any way I can. Every so often, I try to sort through the decades of notes and files from it seems every imaginable form of mostly swords and edged weapons, but the task of making tangible sense of it all seems hopeless.

The most important thing I have had in the years since I joined this forum, is that I loved to write. As most of you know, my posts and their detail are typically pretty heavy. Actually, these became my 'journal', and virtually the result of my 'research' on each weapon or topic (as well pointed out by Ian, this is probably better described as 'compilation' as it is simply gathering data from various sources). Thus, in effect, and in my own perspective, this huge corpus of my ramblings are I believe my own legacy, and which I have faithfully placed on these pages so as to share the results of my study here.

My purpose was always not to claim authority nor recognition as much as to generate discussion and further study by others, so that we might find any flaws in the data and advance our knowledge as a team. As Alan has well pointed out, it is almost welcoming to have disagreements or alternate views placed toward what has been entered, as it reveals that the material has been properly read and any weaknesses can be remedied.

To me, our long standing efforts here are together are as has been noted, a monumental repository of knowledge shared by all of us as a group, and for the benefit of us all, as well as those who will come. We know there are always new collectors and students joining us, and we welcome them, and invite them to ask their questions, and most emphatically to become one of us. Seek information wherever you can, and enter it here to be shared, discussed, evaluated and above all, preserved, along with the ever mounting corpus of data we have spent so many years building.

As we agree, these historical weapons, and often even the more modern ethnographic examples, are a reflection of history and traditions and culture themselves. They all have stories to tell, and this is what we do.....we look to them to tell us what we want and need to know. It is incumbent upon us to listen and seek and find answers to the many questions that come as these arms become our charge. Then to preserve that very material as the legacy others will follow, much in the way we have followed the brilliant students, writers, collectors, curators et al long before us......Demmin, Burton, Egerton, Stone, Oldman, Oakeshott, Blair, North and so many others.

So the message is....follow your own path in the study of these arms, but whatever that way is......engage, participate, share, research, compile, admire, learn......but do so with the excitement and passion we all share together. We are all part of the legacy.
'Quid pro Quo'

[trenchwarfare]

Great thread. I thought I might add this...
I have observed over the years, being a member of several forums, that new members are usually given a warm welcome, but not the same amount of attention to their posts, as the veterans get. (unless they're female) Especially, if they post pictures, and ask questions about something that is very elementary. I'm talking about items, that a one minute google search, will produce all there is to know. It also happens, if something extremely rare, and obscure is posted. This happens with knowledgeable new members as well. Before you know it, discussions are only between new members, and the old hands, just sit back and observe. Until, one them post a new thread. Then, it's all hands on deck. This forum isn't as nearly bad as some others. Some are just a group of crusty old know-it-all sharks, just waiting for the next feeding frenzy.

As far as "show 'n tell", isn't that what this is all about? If I post what I think is a really unique item, I'm not saying "Nanny nanny boo boo, look what I have." I'm saying, "Hey guys, check this out! Ain't it cool? Whatizzit?" Or, what can you tell me about it. We don't know all there is to know about anything. But, some dialogue on an unknown item, might accidentally produce the key, that unravels the mystery.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes Jim is a dedicated researcher - taking notes and keeping them for decades :-).

Some time back I wrote an article How Old is the Katar? published in The Royal Armour Journal.
Untill then Ibn Battute's (14th century) description of a katar, being used to kill a travelling companion of his, was the first known description of a katar.
In the article I have taken it back to the 10th century Orissa. I only had a drawing to show in the article; now I have also found a photo of the statue with the katar. But there is a gap from the katar I wrote about, to the katars we have in our collections - although I have a very early one, there still seem to be a gap.
To day I may have found one of 'the missing links'. I have not seen any pictures so far, but if I am correct it is from the 12th century. I do hope I am correct, as it would show the development of the katar, from the 10th century to the katars we now know.

Research can take a long time, and sometimes when you have finished, something new comes up. Research means to keep you mind open, and to be able to change your mind when new things suddenly appears.

[ariel]

There were several "research" papers published here. Some were incredibly sophomoric and some had logical and factual holes size of Great Lakes.
I wrote comments, pointing out to these gross deficiencies and trying to be as polite as possible.
I was sternly reprimanded for discouraging the novices from posting their ideas and for pointing out their errors.
Since then I am trying to keep very low profile.

If this Forum wants academic discussions, then it should adopt the " no holds barred" approach.
Being a current Assoc . Editor of 2 major scientific Journals, as well as Assoc Editor or Editorial Board member of a dozen more in the past I can assure you that the level of criticism in the real academic world is several orders of magnitude more severe than here, and that any self-respecting scientific journal rejects at least 80% of submissions.

The Forum has to choose between being an academic resource and a mutual admiration society.

[David R]

Once upon a time, there was no internet, no collectors forums, no Google and no Wikipedia. Now there are!
I have been collecting for 49 years, starting with some absolute rubbish and working my way up to desirable and well researched rubbish. Research was done in Libraries and Museums and pumping the more knowledgeable I met in the shops and at the Fairs. Dear God how I bent the ears of those poor dealers and other collectors!
Rejoice in the vast resource we now have, and have sympathy for those who now enter the Maelstrom of collecting, for just as there is more information easily available, so are there more opportunities to come a cropper, Ebay and Alibaba you know who you are......
I could not collect the way I do now without the internet, I also use it to research beyond my comfort zone, and elsewhere I happily share what I have learned with others. The medium has changed, but it is still the same hobby. Pay it forward.

[Kubur]

I think all has been said. I would like to add that the research's world is not an ideal world. Most of the researchers are not looking to improve knowledge. Most of them are very confortable with little ideas and little projects. Most of them are reproducing knowledge, very few are doing real research. The ones who are doing real research are fighting against windmills.
Best,
Kubur

[Ian]

Ariel, I am reminded of a quote attributed to Henry Kissinger. When asked, "Why do academics fight so viciously?" he is reported to have responded, "Because there is so little at stake."

As academics, we are trained by our mentors to attack without mercy (in the name of objective criticism) and to defend at all costs. After battling the wild rapids of academic discourse, it is sometimes difficult to adjust to a quiet backwater like this forum. Here we are more often dealing with civilians than combatants, and need to adjust accordingly. There are ways of pointing out errors in logic, assumptions, biases, etc. that are not perceived as "hostile." After all, there is so little at stake here too. We can have spirited and lively debate here, and often do, and I see no reason why discussions based on academic principles cannot be conducted here--just in a more gentle and polite manner than in the academic sphere.

Ian.

Originally Posted by ariel

There were several "research" papers published here. Some were incredibly sophomoric and some had logical and factual holes size of Great Lakes.
I wrote comments, pointing out to these gross deficiencies and trying to be as polite as possible.
I was sternly reprimanded for discouraging the novices from posting their ideas and for pointing out their errors.
Since then I am trying to keep very low profile.

If this Forum wants academic discussions, then it should adopt the " no holds barred" approach.
Being a current Assoc . Editor of 2 major scientific Journals, as well as Assoc Editor or Editorial Board member of a dozen more in the past I can assure you that the level of criticism in the real academic world is several orders of magnitude more severe than here, and that any self-respecting scientific journal rejects at least 80% of submissions.

The Forum has to choose between being an academic resource and a mutual admiration society.

[Silver John]

Originally Posted by ariel

There were several "research" papers published here. Some were incredibly sophomoric and some had logical and factual holes size of Great Lakes.

There is evidently a huge difference between accumulating information for our own personal interest and conducting legitimate research.

Can anyone recommend a text that lays out the correct way to record and assess historical information and evidence? It would be a shame to spend years looking into a particular subject only to find that nothing one has uncovered is given credence by other collectors and researchers.

[Ian]

Jens:

What you describe is the type of original contribution to the field that does not come to many of us. Tracing the origins of past weapons is important historical research that defines the diffusion of styles through trade and warfare that also reflects other aspects of human history. The history of weapons has not received the same attention as, say, the history of jewellery, pottery, art, or even personal items such as belt buckles or hair combs. And yet, the type of weapons we explore are historical artifacts.

Recently I purchased through online auction a 300+ year-old, SE Asian sword in excellent condition for less than $200. This is uncommon, but would be almost impossible to find at this price if we were talking about other significant items (e.g., jewellery) of similar age and quality. The point I am trying to make is that important historical weapons are still available to the collector--we can make contributions by posting these here and putting them in an historical context.

Like Jens, I search for drawings and photographs from various sources, visit museums and galleries, read the accounts of earlier travelers in the lands I am interested in, and visit field sites when I can. The information and ideas come slowly. Perhaps that is why this type of collecting seems to be an "old guys" hobby.

Ian

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes Jim is a dedicated researcher - taking notes and keeping them for decades :-).

Some time back I wrote an article How Old is the Katar? published in The Royal Armour Journal.
Untill then Ibn Battute's (14th century) description of a katar, being used to kill a travelling companion of his, was the first known description of a katar.
In the article I have taken it back to the 10th century Orissa. I only had a drawing to show in the article; now I have also found a photo of the statue with the katar. But there is a gap from the katar I wrote about, to the katars we have in our collections - although I have a very early one, there still seem to be a gap.
To day I may have found one of 'the missing links'. I have not seen any pictures so far, but if I am correct it is from the 12th century. I do hope I am correct, as it would show the development of the katar, from the 10th century to the katars we now know.

Research can take a long time, and sometimes when you have finished, something new comes up. Research means to keep you mind open, and to be able to change your mind when new things suddenly appears.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ariel,
Thanks for your post, but you must remember that this forum is not only for scholars, it is also for new collectors, who understand very little when they have just started.

David,
We have been collecting about the same number of years, but apart from you, I was lucky as The first tulwar I bought, which still is one of my best, was chosen for me by the dealer Helge Broens Hansen - so I was very lucky to have my first tulwar to look at when I wanted to buy another one.

Kubur,
Please remember that most collectors concentrate on a very small field, but in that field they are mostly very good, and have a very big knowledge.

Ian,
I always like your mails, so thank you for writing.
I recently got a tulwar - with a shamshir blade. There was writing on the hilt telling me that it must have belonged to a Shit, but there was also a name on the blade. I was half up the wall when I found out that it had belonged to Saadat Ali Khan Bahadur - the first nawab og Oudh.
Under Muhammad Shah he was one of the most powerful men in India, but he died the day before Delhi was sacked by Nadir Shah of Persia.
I am sure you, and many others know how I felt, when I found out - and the following research. Yes it took some time, and I am not sure I am finished yet.

Thanks for all the posts

Jens

[CharlesS]

My interest in cross cultural items from throughout the Islamic world often comes with very little research done on it. That's why it is important for me to know at least something of the weapons of a variety of cultures...at the very least enough to recognize the very nature of the "cultures crossed" by some unique piece.

I think it is both fun and important to record the seemingly endless possibilities, and that's why I do it here.

For me it's all about accumulating as many pics as possible...old catalogs, old photos, old auctions, web sites, and of course old and new books.

I can remember a debate on here some years ago regarding the origins of what we now call the "Black Sea yataghan". Essentially one photo in one Russian publication about 10 years ago ended the debate! Pics as well as info are essential...no matter how old or seemingly out of context they may be.

[Ian]

Good points Charles. Cross-cultural pieces are indeed fascinating and again speak to diffusion of styles among different cultures that reflect other sociological/anthropological interactions. It would be a great addition to the forum, I think, if we had some social scientists participating here who could speak to some of these cross-cultural influences.

We also get a lot of information about changes in a particular weapon over time by discovering "transition pieces," those that seem to fall between two identified forms of the same weapon, within the same culture. We had an example on the Forum just recently in a discussion on Tunisian daggers (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20240).

While many of us tend to focus on the blade of an edged weapon as its main defining feature, there is important information too from a study of guards, hilts, scabbards, belts and other suspension devices. Although such fittings may be replaced over time, they can tell a lot about the particular culture in which that weapon was used or re-used.

For those who collect antique firearms, I'm sure there are similar approaches and issues to address. Those topics are way outside my comfort zone so I'll let others comment on firearms research.

Ian.

Originally Posted by CharlesS

My interest in cross cultural items from throughout the Islamic world often comes with very little research done on it. That's why it is important for me to know at least something of the weapons of a variety of cultures...at the very least enough to recognize the very nature of the "cultures crossed" by some unique piece.

I think it is both fun and important to record the seemingly endless possibilities, and that's why I do it here.

For me it's all about accumulating as many pics as possible...old catalogs, old photos, old auctions, web sites, and of course old and new books.

I can remember a debate on here some years ago regarding the origins of what we now call the "Black Sea yataghan". Essentially one photo in one Russian publication about 10 years ago ended the debate! Pics as well as info are essential...no matter how old or seemingly out of context they may be.

[ariel]

I am not advocating aggressive, personal and insulting remarks.
However, I was,- and still am,- a bit disappointed by the insipid nature of comments. Even when the thesis advanced is plainly illiterate, the general rule is to say something along the lines " Oh, very interesting, nice job" and avoid addressing obvious deficiencies of the argument.
There are plenty of people here who have more than enough smarts and knowledge to negate the wrong data and fallacious conclusions in a polite but firm way.
If they remain silent, the rest of us have no opportunity to learn.

Enough said.

[Rich]

Ariel wrote:

"The Forum has to choose between being an academic resource and a mutual admiration society."

I would respectfully disagree. This forum has been doing quite well for a long time for both newbies and seasoned collectors. Let's just keep it polite and civilized. I too am a scientist and academic with numerous papers under my belt. I've had to defend my results in front of large groups of my peers; sometimes it does get "no holds barred", but it is civilized and polite - I think we are capable of doing that. Cool it and have fun and enjoy what we learn and/or share!
Rich

-------------------------------------------------------
Rich S, PhD, FAIC

Japanese Sword Guide
http://japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm