Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

[Radu Transylvanicus]

Priyatel Teodor,

When is this iconoclastic painting dated again ?A bit too ,,fully matured,, orthodox style with very developed christianic characters for 500s a.C. , dont you think ? personal opinion ...
As far as the birth of the sword, I agree with an earliear date set than originally mentioned but if not backed by hard evidence remains just supposition, even though we both believe in just as much and were convinced it was the case... On the other hand, however, I am rather keen to lean towards an Alanic versus an Avaric transitional origin (debated and agreed this already with our ,,brother in arms,, Jim McD. , earliear...) .
Any pre-scimitars, perhaps of Turkic origin, you can think of in any museums that would predate the ones we know already as 9th century and were found on European teritory, including Ukraine or Turkey ?

Radu

[TVV]

Oh no, deffinitely not 500 AC, it is I believe from the late 8th century. There are miniatures from the middle of the 9th century in the Chronicle of Ioan Skilica, depicting the Byzantine emperor Leo V Armenian (813-820) with a sabre, of which I am unable to find a scan right now. It would be strange for an Eastern Roman Emperor to be depicted with a weapon that was just introduced by the enemies of his Empire.
I agree with the Alanic origin, since there are linguistic evidences that the word sabre originated from an Alanic root: "shab" meaning an edged weapon in thast language. The Magyars appeared in Eastern Europe in the beggining of the 900s, or early 10th century. Since there are examples from the 9th century from the Balkans and what is now Hungary, it is clear I believe that this weapon was introduced to these places by the Avars, Bulgars and the other Turkic tribes. It is highly unlikely that the Bulgars for example came up with the design of the sabre after moving to the Balkans, so it should have been with them at least since the 7th century. Whether the sabre appeared at about that time in the Eurasian Steppes or earlier, it is hard to say.
Best Regards, as always,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Just a recap of the development of the sabre from current notes:

"...the very long, curved, narrow battle axe of Middle Kingdom Egypt (1990-1798 BC) may have been the prototype for the curved swords which the popular imagination always associates with Islam. Curved bronze swords had been in use for at least two millennia before Islam ".
"Swords of Islam" by Anthony North
in "Swords & Hilt Weapons (ed.M.Coe,
N.Y.1989), p.137
"...our knowledge of the sword of the Avars has recently been augmented by a new reconstruction of the Pereshchepina sword, which shows that it had a long straight blade and a ring pommeled hilt with vestigial quillons".
"China and Central Asia"
by Thom Richardson
(Coe, ibid.p.176)
"...the curved cavalry sword , however, probably originated in Turkestan. Perhaps the earliest representation of such a weapon appears in a frescoe from Sorcuq, usually assumed to date from the 8th century, examples excavated from graves can be dated from the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries".
Richardson (op.cit.p.176)
Richardson states further, "...the curved sword was not diagnostic of a different method of warfare, nor did it oust the straight, single edged sword in Central Asia".
On p.180 he states: "...in all likelihood, the curved sword was introduced by the Uighurs. This Turkish people, originally Manicheans, were converted to Buddhism in the mid 9th century and established a kingdom centred on Turfan and Kucha. Earliest examples of these curved swords belong to Khirghiz finds of the 10th century".
* it is noted that the frescoe which represents an event of 8th c. probably was painted much later, possibly 300 years.

This data illustrates the rather sketchy speculation on the development of the sabre as a weapon form, however it does seem to clarify that the Avars seem to have used straight blade swords. This seems likely as they are thought to have actually been the Ruan-Ruan who were driven from Mongolian regions c.550 AD and thier ring hilt swords were of probably influenced by the huanshoe dao ring pommel straight swords of Han empire China.

The Alano-Magyar sabres previously discussed from northern Caucasian regions and shown in Lebedynsky ("Les Armes Traditionelles de l'Europe Centrale" ,p.18) also include the familiar 'sword of Charlemagne' which is a sabre of 9th c. slight curved blade and extended yelman.

In "The Lore of Arms" (William Reid, 1976) it is stated, "...curved swords were common in Eastern Europe in the Middle Ages, but in the west the medieval form known is the falchion".
The falchion seems to have been essentially a straight back sword with a widened and bellied blade for slashing as the sabre.

At this point, while both heavy straight swords were in use, along with variations of sabres, it would seem that primary development of curving blades was taking place in the Islamic sphere. In "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski ("Art, Arms and Armour" ed. Robert Held, Vol.I, 1979-80, p.222), it is stated, "...the first examples to find thier way to Poland might have been imported Turkish products, or Hungarian ones patterned on Turkish model, and thier appearance in large numbers should be dated from the beginning of the 16th century.In 1505, the municipal council of Cracow granted swordmakers the right to mount and furbish sabres".

OK, I didn't say a 'brief' recap !!
I just wanted to add some references that might help in our discussion on development of the sabre. It seems to me that the sabre has existed in varied forms concurrent with other forms of sword, and the more curved and parabolic forms of sabre gained popularity as noted from about 16th c. onward. It also seems generally held that the cavalry tactics and use of the sabre evolved in Eastern Europe influenced by Turkish horsemen and likely others from Balkan regions.

Best regards,
Jim

[TVV]

Hi Jim, the sword from Malaja Pereschepina is connected to the Bulgars before they were displaced from the North of the Caucasus by the Hazars to the Balkans, due to a ring found in the burrial bearing the name of the Great Khan Kubrat, father of the founder of the Bulgarian State Khan Asparauh. It is straight, you are absolutely right. There are straight swords, double edged or single edged found in nowadays Bulgaria from the same period, from which curved sabres have been discovered, sometimes even from the same archeological site.
In Medieval Bulgaria the sabre started to lose popularity as a weapon for various reasons, the main one I guess being the huge Byzantine cultural and material influence, and it was replaced by the straight sword by the 10th century, as the only examples of sabres discovered then are those associated with the Magyar incursions. I believe something similar happened with the sabres of the Magyars themselves: at some point they simply went out of fashion. I do not have any information whether the Cumans, an ethnicity very close to the Bulgars, had any sabres, and Russian museums tend to attribute everything associated with the Volga Bulgars to the Mongols. I agree with you that the sabre as a weapon form gained large popularity only when it was reintroduced by the Ottomans in the 16th century.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by TVV

Hi Jim, the sword from Malaja Pereschepina is connected to the Bulgars before they were displaced from the North of the Caucasus by the Hazars to the Balkans, due to a ring found in the burrial bearing the name of the Great Khan Kubrat, father of the founder of the Bulgarian State Khan Asparauh. It is straight, you are absolutely right. There are straight swords, double edged or single edged found in nowadays Bulgaria from the same period, from which curved sabres have been discovered, sometimes even from the same archeological site.
In Medieval Bulgaria the sabre started to lose popularity as a weapon for various reasons, the main one I guess being the huge Byzantine cultural and material influence, and it was replaced by the straight sword by the 10th century, as the only examples of sabres discovered then are those associated with the Magyar incursions. I believe something similar happened with the sabres of the Magyars themselves: at some point they simply went out of fashion. I do not have any information whether the Cumans, an ethnicity very close to the Bulgars, had any sabres, and Russian museums tend to attribute everything associated with the Volga Bulgars to the Mongols. I agree with you that the sabre as a weapon form gained large popularity only when it was reintroduced by the Ottomans in the 16th century.

Hello TVV,
Outstanding perspective on this extremely esoteric sector of history in the Eastern European/Balkan regions. The Pereshchepina sword is apparantly from the 7th century and was discovered near Poltava in the Ukraine in village of Malaja Pereshchepina in 1912. There was a very important article written on this sword in 1985 in Russia ("On the Principles of Reconstruction of the Pereshchepina Sword", Z.Lvova & A. Seminov, in Arkheologicesksya Sbornik, Vol.26). It was compared primarily to Avar swords found in Hungarian territory. Because the blade was single edged, there was considerable attention given to what term should be applied, and some confusion had resulted in earlier discussions because of the interpolation of the terms sword and sabre. The long narrow straight swords of the Huns are also mentioned (in other works these are termed 'urepos').

I think you are right in the idea that in degree military fashion did guage with changes in power as geopolitical and cultural fusion occurred in regions. What you say about the decline of curved sabres of Magyars is very interesting, and need to look more into that aspect.

From what I understand, the Cumans presence in Bulgaria came after the Mongol vassalage (1292-95) when two subsequent dynasties of Cuman origin evolved. By c.1340 this ended with Turkish invasions.The Turks ruled from 1396-1878. I did find a sabre attributed to the Cumans in Hungary from 12th-13th century ("Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" , David C. Nicolle, N.Y.1988, p.534, #1462) which is similar to Khirghiz sabres of 10th-12th c. and not deeply curved, but single edged.
It is noted,"...used by one of the Kun, the name given to those Turkish Cuman, originally Peceneg tribes, who fled into Hungary and then settled in the area. For several centuries they retained a separate identity and maintained a nomadic, pastoral way of life comparable to that of the original Magyars. This long, slender sabre is a typical Turco-Mongol type of weapon, although the uncharacteristically long quillons may be a local development following the Kuns settlement in Hungary".

It is interesting to note in the same book (p.95, #240), "...a sword from Buzau, Wallachia 13th c., probably a German import. This region was dominated by Eurasian steppe nomads, Pecenegs and Cumans. This sword likely reached this area via the Hungarians who then ruled Transylvania".
The sword is a typical medieval broadsword, and is noted simply to demonstrate the congruent use of varied sword forms by same groups in close regions.

I think the Mongol attribution is often a generalization in referring to many of these tribal groups that moved westward into these regions, and many variations in semantics occur in describing them. For example, the Avars were actually Ruan-Ruan, etc. and many complexities!

Even more complex is the sabre development conundrum, but I think we have a running start at it in this discusson!

Best regards,
Jim

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hello TVV,
Outstanding perspective on this extremely esoteric sector of history in the Eastern European/Balkan regions. The Pereshchepina sword is apparantly from the 7th century and was discovered near Poltava in the Ukraine in village of Malaja Pereshchepina in 1912. There was a very important article written on this sword in 1985 in Russia ("On the Principles of Reconstruction of the Pereshchepina Sword", Z.Lvova & A. Seminov, in Arkheologicesksya Sbornik, Vol.26). It was compared primarily to Avar swords found in Hungarian territory. Because the blade was single edged, there was considerable attention given to what term should be applied, and some confusion had resulted in earlier discussions because of the interpolation of the terms sword and sabre. The long narrow straight swords of the Huns are also mentioned (in other works these are termed 'urepos').

I think you are right in the idea that in degree military fashion did guage with changes in power as geopolitical and cultural fusion occurred in regions. What you say about the decline of curved sabres of Magyars is very interesting, and need to look more into that aspect.

From what I understand, the Cumans presence in Bulgaria came after the Mongol vassalage (1292-95) when two subsequent dynasties of Cuman origin evolved. By c.1340 this ended with Turkish invasions.The Turks ruled from 1396-1878. I did find a sabre attributed to the Cumans in Hungary from 12th-13th century ("Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era 1050-1350" , David C. Nicolle, N.Y.1988, p.534, #1462) which is similar to Khirghiz sabres of 10th-12th c. and not deeply curved, but single edged.
It is noted,"...used by one of the Kun, the name given to those Turkish Cuman, originally Peceneg tribes, who fled into Hungary and then settled in the area. For several centuries they retained a separate identity and maintained a nomadic, pastoral way of life comparable to that of the original Magyars. This long, slender sabre is a typical Turco-Mongol type of weapon, although the uncharacteristically long quillons may be a local development following the Kuns settlement in Hungary".

It is interesting to note in the same book (p.95, #240), "...a sword from Buzau, Wallachia 13th c., probably a German import. This region was dominated by Eurasian steppe nomads, Pecenegs and Cumans. This sword likely reached this area via the Hungarians who then ruled Transylvania".
The sword is a typical medieval broadsword, and is noted simply to demonstrate the congruent use of varied sword forms by same groups in close regions.

I think the Mongol attribution is often a generalization in referring to many of these tribal groups that moved westward into these regions, and many variations in semantics occur in describing them. For example, the Avars were actually Ruan-Ruan, etc. and many complexities!

Even more complex is the sabre development conundrum, but I think we have a running start at it in this discusson!

Best regards,
Jim

Another outstanding post, Jim. Good grief, man! You've been on a tear lately!

[Radu Transylvanicus]

...(just watching an awesome development of this thread) ...
however : QUOTE Jim : ,,"...a sword from Buzau, Wallachia 13th c., probably a German import. This region was dominated by Eurasian steppe nomads, Pecenegs and Cumans"
... ahem , ahem ... easy there, tiger !