Basket hilted swords

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

My deliberate mistake above... SH stands for the mark of Samuel Harvey....of which there were 3; Father Son and Grandson...all involved in sword manufacture based in Birmingham. Does anyone know which ones used the SH blademark and which used the H only mark ?...all inside the body of the Running Fox.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Cathey]

Hi Eljay,

Great collection of baskets and I particularly like #191 the mortuary sword. Like you I have never seen one with a thumb ring before

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Eljay,

Great collection of baskets and I particularly like #191 the mortuary sword. Like you I have never seen one with a thumb ring before

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Interesting indeed as I also never recall seeing a thumb ring on a 'mortuary' type hilt. It seems that a good number of these swords were fabricated in the Hounslow factory, which was of course largely comprised of German makers brought into England earlier under the auspices of the King.

Is it possible that this characteristically European , especially German, feature may have been incorporated into this and perhaps a number of these hilts recalling those traditions?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

My deliberate mistake above... SH stands for the mark of Samuel Harvey....of which there were 3; Father Son and Grandson...all involved in sword manufacture based in Birmingham. Does anyone know which ones used the SH blademark and which used the H only mark ?...all inside the body of the Running Fox.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim,
The whole Hounslow/Shotley Bridge/ Samuel Harvey circumstances in British swords have been a virtual conundrum which most collectors have found daunting at best.

The Shotley Bridge factory actually evolved around 1687 with Hermann Mohll and some of the makers of the Hounslow enterprise of earlier in the century comprised of German makers brought in for this purpose. They were closed down c. 1703 then reopened c. 1716 (if I recall correctly) .
It seems a good number of swords from earlier blades, probably Hounslow, did use the 'Passau wolf' (running wolf), however it has been suggested that earlier Shotley Bridge weapons also used this.

The 'Samuel Harvey' dynasty began in England with Samuel Harvey Sr. (b. 1698). His production was at 74 High Street, and continued until his death in 1778.
His son Samuel Harvey Jr. was with him in business , and moved to 4 Cannon Street in 1789. His son Samuel Harvey III was with him in business.
Jr. died in 1795, and in turn his son took over until his death in 1810.

Effectively, the Harveys made swords from c. 1716 until 1810.

It is known that the mid 18th century hangers and some other of their blades were marked with a running 'fox'. These are apparently a nod to the running wolf of the Passau/Solingen fame (clearly a fox with its notably plumed tail) and typically had the initials S H in the body.

There seem to be variations, and in some cases only the H is seen, however it is unclear whether in these case the missing letters are simply worn away or indeed never placed there).
I have seen one example of the Passau type wolf with an H, and one suggestion it might have been a Hounslow sword, but that idea was discounted and the idea of it being a Harvey variant suggested....but since it is the rough chiseled 'wolf' character, not the 'fox', it seems unlikely.

Many of the Harvey blades are simply stamped with the name S Harvey,
no fox, and near the hilt, not on the blade center. Others are seen with HARVEY alone.
There has been no evidence I am aware of that any particular variation of the fox and initials, or the stamped name were favored or used distinctively by any one of the Harvey men. It does seem the running fox with the SH initials are more consistant on the hangers of mid 18th century however.

That's the best I can figure so far, and I wanted to thank you for bringing up this interesting element concerning these blades and makers which as seen do occasionally occur in the blades of these swords.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim,
The whole Hounslow/Shotley Bridge/ Samuel Harvey circumstances in British swords have been a virtual conundrum which most collectors have found daunting at best.

The Shotley Bridge factory actually evolved around 1687 with Hermann Mohll and some of the makers of the Hounslow enterprise of earlier in the century comprised of German makers brought in for this purpose. They were closed down c. 1703 then reopened c. 1716 (if I recall correctly) .
It seems a good number of swords from earlier blades, probably Hounslow, did use the 'Passau wolf' (running wolf), however it has been suggested that earlier Shotley Bridge weapons also used this.

The 'Samuel Harvey' dynasty began in England with Samuel Harvey Sr. (b. 1698). His production was at 74 High Street, and continued until his death in 1778.
His son Samuel Harvey Jr. was with him in business , and moved to 4 Cannon Street in 1789. His son Samuel Harvey III was with him in business.
Jr. died in 1795, and in turn his so took over until his death in 1810.

Effectively, the Harveys made swords from c. 1716 until 1810.

It is known that the mid 18th century hangers and some other of their blades were marked with a running 'fox'. These are apparently a nod to the running wolf of the Passau/Solingen fame (clearly a fox with its notably plumed tail) and typically had the initials S H in the body.

There seem to be variations, and in some cases only the H is seen, however it is unclear whether in these case the missing letters are simply worn away or indeed never placed there).
I have seen one example of the Passau type wolf with an H, and one suggestion it might have been a Hounslow sword, but that idea was discounted and the idea of it being a Harvey variant suggested....but since it is the rough chiseled 'wolf' character, not the 'fox', it seems unlikely.

Many of the Harvey blades are simply stamped with the name S Harvey,
no fox, and near the hilt, not on the blade center. Others are seen with HARVEY alone.
There has been no evidence I am aware of that any particular variation of the fox and initials, or the stamped name were favored or used distinctively by any one of the Harvey men. It does seem the running fox with the SH initials are more consistant on the hangers of mid 18th century however.

That's the best I can figure so far, and I wanted to thank you for bringing up this interesting element concerning these blades and makers which as seen do occasionally occur in the blades of these swords.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim, That is a great assist on Samuel Harvey...I have a sword with one collector associate with the HAR stacked above VEY in a sort of block stamp.. Thank you very much for your help on this and looking around I note how difficult the conundrum on the Harveys actually is. Much appreciated !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[E.B. Erickson]

Jim,
Thanks for the comments on the Harvey clan - very helpful.

Cathey/Ibrahim,
Regarding thumbrings on Mortuary swords, I was unaware of their existence until about 7 years ago, when one showed up on an auction site. The one I own came up for sale shortly thereafter, and I've been on the lookout for others ever since then. Mazansky does have around 6 Morts shown in his book that have thumbrings, but as I recall he doesn't always mention the presence of a thumbring in the descriptions. Examine the photos and you'll find them.

[Cathey]

Nationality English
Overall Length: 99 cm (39 inches)
Blade length: 84 cm (33.1 inches)
Blade widest point: 4cm (1.6 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13 cm
Inside grip length: 8.4 cm

Description
Troopers version of the Howard hilt cavalry sword. Typical flattened circular pommel, leather wire bound, good condition grip with steel basket guard of squared lattice panels, large trailing rein loop oval panel. One central fuller 17cm long which starts 4 ½ cm down from hilt. Howard 3rd dragoon Guards commissioned from 1748-1765. Good condition for age, some pitting.

The term Howard hilt comes from the connection based on plate 43 in John Wallace’s Scottish Swords and Dirks. Wallace connected the pattern with Howard based on a similar sword in a portrait of General Sir Charles Howard in the uniform of the 3rd Dragoon Guards.

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp184. 186 & 232
NEUMANN, George G. SWORDS AND BLADES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION pp71, plate 29.S
SOUTWICK, Leslie, The Price Guide to Antique Edged Weapons Pp 143 No 389.
Wallace, John Scottish Swords and Dirks an illustrated Guide to Scottish Weapons plate 43.
Wallace John Scottish Swords and Dirks Plate 43.
WALLIS & WALLIS Connoisseur Collectors Sale Spring 1996 1/5/96 Lot 133.
Weller & Dufty Sale 11409 lot 1287 (shows Scabbard) pp33

Cheers Cathey and Rex