Tulwar broadsword??

ariel · 22nd December 2005, 03:54 PM

Where did I read that a slightly downturned quillons are usually seen on older handles? Rawson?

Lew · 22nd December 2005, 04:15 PM

Hi Andy

So your the one who got this beauty I was bidding on it but forgot to up my bid a the last minute

I think it is an older hilt style from the 1600s the blade seems German to me.

Lew

Andy Davis · 22nd December 2005, 04:33 PM

Hi Lew
Ah sorry about that. Most tulwars get spotted on Ebay and get a bit too pricey for what they are at times. This one seems to be one that got away, closed at an odd time or was forgotten by too many. I've done the same thing myself.
On this I just put in a price, that I thought it would go over and settled to the thought that somebody else would get it. I was bl****! surprised when I won. Not the first time thats happend but so very rarely.
While it has obviously been well maintained or restored in its lifetime, under the quillions, there is good honest dirt. Engraving ummm! really not sure, I think its a bit rough to be genuine European but then again early items are much rougher, in some cases.
Cheers for the info
Andy

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd December 2005, 09:33 PM

Hi Andy,

If you are not much interested – then why ask?

Yes Ariel, you are right, these down turned quillons are normally of the older type.

Jens

Jim McDougall · 23rd December 2005, 01:57 AM

Hi Andy,
You have a very interesting hybrid here, and I your observations noting the kaskara type blade and paluoar hilt similarities are well placed. I go along with Jens observation suggesting the plausibility of Sind with the hilt form.
There are interesting contrasts here in estimating possibilities for this sword, especially what appears to be a typical German trade blade possibly early to mid 19th c. of the type that characteristically entered North Africa to be mounted on kaskaras. In India, these probably came in via Arab trade in the northwest, and Sind is directly northeast of Karachi, which is of course a key port. Sind is known to have had distinct and often more apparant affinity for Persian styles in weaponry as noted in Egerton. It seems many of the shamshir type hilts on tulwars may be from regions in Sind.

What is key about this unusually mounted sword with tulwar hilt and broadsword blade is its association to the 'pattisa' *which is only vaguely described and loosely parallels the khanda. These are primarily Deccan weapons which toward the northwest were favored by Rajputs. It would seem a broadsword with this type hilt might suggest Rajput association in northwest frontier regions or even Sind further south.

*pattisa do not have the khanda hilt but an open hilt such as this and usually have a broadsword blade although with flared point.

The hilt does have certain characteristics that favor the paluoar, such as the bowl type pommel as well as slightly downward slope on the tulwar quillons. The hilt with vertical fluting is unusual, and one of the very few examples I have seen is one in Figiel (fig. 17c, PS9) which he suggests is a Persian shamshir. It has tulwar form hilt although different than this one, does have a version of this fluting. Something else significant to me is the appearance of the concentric circles motif. This is typically seen in Afghanistan on various weapons and usually in bone grips.

So here we have elements of influence from regions to the north, found on what may be a Rajput weapon from Sind, reflecting influences from the Deccan and even from the Mughal sphere far to the south in the use of brass, which is more characteristic there. Then with the use of a German trade blade more commonly found on kaskaras in Africa.
A fascinating anomaly !!!

Nicely done Andy!!

I think you should seriously think about tickets to Las Vegas!!!

All the best,
Jim

Andy Davis · 23rd December 2005, 09:26 AM

Ah Jens, every edged weapon of any nationality interests me and its only now that I've tried to specialise in Indian items. Still at over 30 tulwars, I think I could claim to have an interest! Its just that I dont always expect my funds to be able to get the most spectacular...just the cheapest

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd December 2005, 04:19 PM

Hi Andy,
I was surprised to see that you have over 30 tulwars, that is quite a lot, and I doubt that many, if any at all, on the forum can beat that.
Cheap or expensive weapons mostly have the same characteristics, and when you want to study the weapon as a weapon, it is these characteristics, which are of interest.

Hi Jim,
So you also took the decoration of the hilt into consideration – I should have known it. Yes it is interesting to see such a decoration on a hilt from the Sind area, but on the other hand, it may not have been there from the start, and weapons travelled a lot earlier. Foreign blades are not unusual on Indian weapons, but this one is rather unusual, but like you said, even blades without hilts travelled a long way in those days.

RSWORD · 23rd December 2005, 07:26 PM

Let me toss out another theory to spark more discussion. Perhaps the migration is the opposite way. Instead of a German blade that one typically finds on Kaskara finding its way to India via known trade routes, why not an Indian hilt, or style of hilt, finding its way to N Africa. The circle motif is found on N African pieces, such as Berber swords. Perhaps this is a Kaskara whose owner utilized a hilt style obviously influenced by Indian hilts. We will probably not know in either case but I think one can hypothesize both scenarios.

22nd December 2005, 04:33 PM	#3
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	It was me Hi Lew Ah sorry about that. Most tulwars get spotted on Ebay and get a bit too pricey for what they are at times. This one seems to be one that got away, closed at an odd time or was forgotten by too many. I've done the same thing myself. On this I just put in a price, that I thought it would go over and settled to the thought that somebody else would get it. I was bl****! surprised when I won. Not the first time thats happend but so very rarely. While it has obviously been well maintained or restored in its lifetime, under the quillions, there is good honest dirt. Engraving ummm! really not sure, I think its a bit rough to be genuine European but then again early items are much rougher, in some cases. Cheers for the info Andy

23rd December 2005, 09:26 AM	#6
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Interest? Ah Jens, every edged weapon of any nationality interests me and its only now that I've tried to specialise in Indian items. Still at over 30 tulwars, I think I could claim to have an interest! Its just that I dont always expect my funds to be able to get the most spectacular...just the cheapest

22nd December 2005, 03:54 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Where did I read that a slightly downturned quillons are usually seen on older handles? Rawson?

22nd December 2005, 04:15 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Andy So your the one who got this beauty I was bidding on it but forgot to up my bid a the last minute I think it is an older hilt style from the 1600s the blade seems German to me. Lew

22nd December 2005, 09:33 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Andy, If you are not much interested – then why ask? Yes Ariel, you are right, these down turned quillons are normally of the older type. Jens

23rd December 2005, 01:57 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Andy, You have a very interesting hybrid here, and I your observations noting the kaskara type blade and paluoar hilt similarities are well placed. I go along with Jens observation suggesting the plausibility of Sind with the hilt form. There are interesting contrasts here in estimating possibilities for this sword, especially what appears to be a typical German trade blade possibly early to mid 19th c. of the type that characteristically entered North Africa to be mounted on kaskaras. In India, these probably came in via Arab trade in the northwest, and Sind is directly northeast of Karachi, which is of course a key port. Sind is known to have had distinct and often more apparant affinity for Persian styles in weaponry as noted in Egerton. It seems many of the shamshir type hilts on tulwars may be from regions in Sind. What is key about this unusually mounted sword with tulwar hilt and broadsword blade is its association to the 'pattisa' which is only vaguely described and loosely parallels the khanda. These are primarily Deccan weapons which toward the northwest were favored by Rajputs. It would seem a broadsword with this type hilt might suggest Rajput association in northwest frontier regions or even Sind further south. pattisa do not have the khanda hilt but an open hilt such as this and usually have a broadsword blade although with flared point. The hilt does have certain characteristics that favor the paluoar, such as the bowl type pommel as well as slightly downward slope on the tulwar quillons. The hilt with vertical fluting is unusual, and one of the very few examples I have seen is one in Figiel (fig. 17c, PS9) which he suggests is a Persian shamshir. It has tulwar form hilt although different than this one, does have a version of this fluting. Something else significant to me is the appearance of the concentric circles motif. This is typically seen in Afghanistan on various weapons and usually in bone grips. So here we have elements of influence from regions to the north, found on what may be a Rajput weapon from Sind, reflecting influences from the Deccan and even from the Mughal sphere far to the south in the use of brass, which is more characteristic there. Then with the use of a German trade blade more commonly found on kaskaras in Africa. A fascinating anomaly !!! Nicely done Andy!! I think you should seriously think about tickets to Las Vegas!!! All the best, Jim

23rd December 2005, 04:19 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Andy, I was surprised to see that you have over 30 tulwars, that is quite a lot, and I doubt that many, if any at all, on the forum can beat that. Cheap or expensive weapons mostly have the same characteristics, and when you want to study the weapon as a weapon, it is these characteristics, which are of interest. Hi Jim, So you also took the decoration of the hilt into consideration – I should have known it. Yes it is interesting to see such a decoration on a hilt from the Sind area, but on the other hand, it may not have been there from the start, and weapons travelled a lot earlier. Foreign blades are not unusual on Indian weapons, but this one is rather unusual, but like you said, even blades without hilts travelled a long way in those days.

23rd December 2005, 07:26 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Let me toss out another theory to spark more discussion. Perhaps the migration is the opposite way. Instead of a German blade that one typically finds on Kaskara finding its way to India via known trade routes, why not an Indian hilt, or style of hilt, finding its way to N Africa. The circle motif is found on N African pieces, such as Berber swords. Perhaps this is a Kaskara whose owner utilized a hilt style obviously influenced by Indian hilts. We will probably not know in either case but I think one can hypothesize both scenarios.