Basket hilted swords

Battara · 12th July 2015, 11:56 PM

Coming to the party late, I am thankful to you folks for this thread. I didn't know there was an Irish hilt! Now that I have some slight idea of that, I am confused on the Scottish. I know Cathy you mentioned that British and Scottish hilts are hard to distinguish, so would it then be in the pommel buns that would be the decider between Scottish and British styles?

BTW - I have always been interested in Scottish basket hilts, especially during the 18th century. One day when I grow up, I'll own one..........

Cathey · 19th July 2015, 07:11 AM

Hi

Sadly their is not absolute way to be certain about the origin of many basket hilts by pommel alone. However, this is a good start. Generally the typical bun pommel will indicate an English sword etc. The trap is that swords get damaged over time and repaired locally and the blacksmith may not be to particular about which pommel they put back on a sword being repaired etc. I have found MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS a good help when it comes to referencing pommel types for age and nationality.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

E.B. Erickson · 20th July 2015, 02:38 AM

Here's my next basket.

English, ca. 1620

32 1/2" de blade, with short central fuller.

Excavated condition, but retains part of the grip and both brass wire Turk's head knots. The knucklebows are screwed to the pommel. Interestingly, this basket has the feature of a screw-on capstan. Most hilts of this basic pattern are dated in the late 1500s, but I date this one to the 1620s because of the total lack of the long quillions that characterize earlier examples.

An interesting feature of this sword (and something that I didn't think to photograph!) is what looks like langets at the blade shoulder. However, what appears to be langets are actually a repair. This blade apparently broke right where the tang meets the shoulder. The repair was effected by making a tang that has ears protruding on either side of the blade. The blade was inserted
between the ears and the whole welded back together. I'll be able to access my collection again in a few weeks, and will try to remember to photograph the repair.

E.B. Erickson · 20th July 2015, 03:01 AM

Another one.

English? Scottish? Probably dates 1680 - 1720 or so.

31 1/2" de blade with two narrow fullers extending about 8" down the blade. No stamps or inscriptions are present.

Hilt of fairly typical form for the late 1600s with plain unpierced panels with some simple filed/engraved lines. The grip appears to be original. An interesting feature of this sword is that rivets have been used to reinforce the hammer welds (see last photo). However, there's also an additional hole by the blade, and what is this hole for??? Securing the liner?
This is one of the lightest basket hilted swords I have seen. The hilt is composed of rather thin elements, and the weight of the sword is about 1.8 pounds.

Battara · 22nd July 2015, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi

Sadly their is not absolute way to be certain about the origin of many basket hilts by pommel alone. However, this is a good start. Generally the typical bun pommel will indicate an English sword etc. The trap is that swords get damaged over time and repaired locally and the blacksmith may not be to particular about which pommel they put back on a sword being repaired etc. I have found MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS a good help when it comes to referencing pommel types for age and nationality.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

Thank you both. I'll look into this resource.

Jose

E.B. Erickson · 23rd July 2015, 03:44 AM

The first of my Mortuary swords. This one may not even qualify as a basket or half basket (not enough protective bars making up the hilt), but since Mazansky covers Morts in his book, this sword is not inappropriate for this thread!

Mid 1600s in date, with a 32 3/4" de blade inscribed on one side "+ SOLIDEO +" and the other side "+ GLORIA +".

What makes this sword of interest is that it has a thumbring, a feature not found commonly on English swords. The hilt decoration is composed of four grotesque faces, and foliage with some sparse piercings. The grip is one of my restorations, and the diagonal lines seen in places on the blade are artifacts of where some idiot in the past used an angle grinder on it.

E.B. Erickson · 23rd July 2015, 04:03 AM

English, early 1700s.

30" se straight blade with a single back fuller, stamped on both sides with a running fox and SH.

This is apparently a grenadier's baskethilt of the 23rd Regiment: the Royal Welsh Fusileers. The grip is of embossed brass, each side with a crown, POW feathers, the motto "ICH DIEN", and a Hanoverian horse. Neumann shows this same grip design on an S hilted hanger (sword 26S), which is dated to about 1745. I think that the sword shown here is a pattern used ca 1700 by the 23rd. The blade is not shortened, and the fuller ends about 7" from the blade tip.

Mazansky shows several hilts of this type in his book.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd July 2015, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

English, early 1700s.

30" se straight blade with a single back fuller, stamped on both sides with a running fox and SH.

This is apparently a grenadier's baskethilt of the 23rd Regiment: the Royal Welsh Fusileers. The grip is of embossed brass, each side with a crown, POW feathers, the motto "ICH DIEN", and a Hanoverian horse. Neumann shows this same grip design on an S hilted hanger (sword 26S), which is dated to about 1745. I think that the sword shown here is a pattern used ca 1700 by the 23rd. The blade is not shortened, and the fuller ends about 7" from the blade tip.

Mazansky shows several hilts of this type in his book.

Salaams E.B. Erickson The running fox with SH beautifully illustrated on the blades is of course from the Wood Street, Shotley Bridge Factory !! now refurbished as a fine house. What is not that well known is that the company also acquired the local Inn closeby... The Crown and Crossed Swords.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th July 2015, 06:03 PM

My deliberate mistake above... SH stands for the mark of Samuel Harvey....of which there were 3; Father Son and Grandson...all involved in sword manufacture based in Birmingham. Does anyone know which ones used the SH blademark and which used the H only mark ?...all inside the body of the Running Fox.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

fernando · 6th September 2015, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

... Mid 1600s in date, with a 32 3/4" de blade inscribed on one side "+ SOLIDEO +" and the other side "+ GLORIA +"...

Hi Eljay.
Most probably there is nothing new in what i am saying but, the term SOLIDEO may have a rather intentional meaning, when inscribed in a sword. As you know, the solideo is a cap used by bishops and such name originates in the latin "soli Deo tollitur", which means "only before god you take it off". I just thought its inscription in a blade will have the same purpose; something like "only in the name of God you will unsheath it"

.

E.B. Erickson · 7th September 2015, 12:30 PM

Hi Ibrahim,
Thanks for the thoughts on SOLIDEO GLORIA.

It also means SOLI = only DEO = God GLORIA = glory; so "to God alone belongs the glory", or "Glory only to God" or something similar. A sentiment that fits well with the Puritan theology of many of the Commonwealth forces during the ECW!

--ElJay

fernando · 7th September 2015, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Hi Ibrahim,
Thanks for the thoughts on SOLIDEO GLORIA.

It also means SOLI = only DEO = God GLORIA = glory; so "to God alone belongs the glory", or "Glory only to God" or something similar. A sentiment that fits well with the Puritan theology of many of the Commonwealth forces during the ECW!

--ElJay

Hello Eljay,
I assume your reasoning is indeed better mine, specially the second expression.
... this assuming that you are addressing fernando, not Ibrahiim

.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th September 2015, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

Hi Ibrahim,
Thanks for the thoughts on SOLIDEO GLORIA.

It also means SOLI = only DEO = God GLORIA = glory; so "to God alone belongs the glory", or "Glory only to God" or something similar. A sentiment that fits well with the Puritan theology of many of the Commonwealth forces during the ECW!

--ElJay

Soli-Fernando ...That is thanks only to Fernando ..as I had nothing to do with it

Ibrahiim al Balooshi..

19th July 2015, 07:11 AM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Scottish or English Hi Sadly their is not absolute way to be certain about the origin of many basket hilts by pommel alone. However, this is a good start. Generally the typical bun pommel will indicate an English sword etc. The trap is that swords get damaged over time and repaired locally and the blacksmith may not be to particular about which pommel they put back on a sword being repaired etc. I have found MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS a good help when it comes to referencing pommel types for age and nationality. Cheers Cathey and Rex

20th July 2015, 02:38 AM	#3
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Here's my next basket. English, ca. 1620 32 1/2" de blade, with short central fuller. Excavated condition, but retains part of the grip and both brass wire Turk's head knots. The knucklebows are screwed to the pommel. Interestingly, this basket has the feature of a screw-on capstan. Most hilts of this basic pattern are dated in the late 1500s, but I date this one to the 1620s because of the total lack of the long quillions that characterize earlier examples. An interesting feature of this sword (and something that I didn't think to photograph!) is what looks like langets at the blade shoulder. However, what appears to be langets are actually a repair. This blade apparently broke right where the tang meets the shoulder. The repair was effected by making a tang that has ears protruding on either side of the blade. The blade was inserted between the ears and the whole welded back together. I'll be able to access my collection again in a few weeks, and will try to remember to photograph the repair. Attached Images

20th July 2015, 03:01 AM	#4
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Another one. English? Scottish? Probably dates 1680 - 1720 or so. 31 1/2" de blade with two narrow fullers extending about 8" down the blade. No stamps or inscriptions are present. Hilt of fairly typical form for the late 1600s with plain unpierced panels with some simple filed/engraved lines. The grip appears to be original. An interesting feature of this sword is that rivets have been used to reinforce the hammer welds (see last photo). However, there's also an additional hole by the blade, and what is this hole for??? Securing the liner? This is one of the lightest basket hilted swords I have seen. The hilt is composed of rather thin elements, and the weight of the sword is about 1.8 pounds. Attached Images

23rd July 2015, 03:44 AM	#6
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	The first of my Mortuary swords. This one may not even qualify as a basket or half basket (not enough protective bars making up the hilt), but since Mazansky covers Morts in his book, this sword is not inappropriate for this thread! Mid 1600s in date, with a 32 3/4" de blade inscribed on one side "+ SOLIDEO +" and the other side "+ GLORIA +". What makes this sword of interest is that it has a thumbring, a feature not found commonly on English swords. The hilt decoration is composed of four grotesque faces, and foliage with some sparse piercings. The grip is one of my restorations, and the diagonal lines seen in places on the blade are artifacts of where some idiot in the past used an angle grinder on it. Attached Images

23rd July 2015, 04:03 AM	#7
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	English, early 1700s. 30" se straight blade with a single back fuller, stamped on both sides with a running fox and SH. This is apparently a grenadier's baskethilt of the 23rd Regiment: the Royal Welsh Fusileers. The grip is of embossed brass, each side with a crown, POW feathers, the motto "ICH DIEN", and a Hanoverian horse. Neumann shows this same grip design on an S hilted hanger (sword 26S), which is dated to about 1745. I think that the sword shown here is a pattern used ca 1700 by the 23rd. The blade is not shortened, and the fuller ends about 7" from the blade tip. Mazansky shows several hilts of this type in his book. Attached Images

12th July 2015, 11:56 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Coming to the party late, I am thankful to you folks for this thread. I didn't know there was an Irish hilt! Now that I have some slight idea of that, I am confused on the Scottish. I know Cathy you mentioned that British and Scottish hilts are hard to distinguish, so would it then be in the pommel buns that would be the decider between Scottish and British styles? BTW - I have always been interested in Scottish basket hilts, especially during the 18th century. One day when I grow up, I'll own one..........

24th July 2015, 06:03 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	My deliberate mistake above... SH stands for the mark of Samuel Harvey....of which there were 3; Father Son and Grandson...all involved in sword manufacture based in Birmingham. Does anyone know which ones used the SH blademark and which used the H only mark ?...all inside the body of the Running Fox. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 24th July 2015 at 07:14 PM.

7th September 2015, 12:30 PM	#11
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	Hi Ibrahim, Thanks for the thoughts on SOLIDEO GLORIA. It also means SOLI = only DEO = God GLORIA = glory; so "to God alone belongs the glory", or "Glory only to God" or something similar. A sentiment that fits well with the Puritan theology of many of the Commonwealth forces during the ECW! --ElJay