Jitte, Edo period

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Timo, you can not have two weapons with the same name,

There are many examples of the same name being used for different weapons. Apart from broad generic terms like "sword", "spear", "dao", we have "kris" being used for very different Indonesian and Philippine weapons, "claymore" for Scottish basket hilts and two-handed swords, "tuck" for cut-and-thrust swords and for two-handed spike-swords, and more. Yes, it can be inconvenient for unambiguous labelling, but that's the way that language works. There are many non-weapon examples, too.

But if two weapons have the same pronunciation but different characters, they don't have the same names. Their names are homophones. However, your quote from Cunningham suggests that the name of Mol's "jitte" was used for the "jutte/jitte", and the name/kanji changed from one homophone to another, which would make it two names (both homophones) used for the same weapon, with one of the names also used for a different weapon (Mol's "jitte").

Originally Posted by estcrh

many people try to use what they consider the correct Japanese term but if they do not know about the two very different weapons how can they apply the correct name?

What is without doubt is that the modern Japanese name of the "jitte/jutte" is 十手 in kanji, じって in hiragana, and "jitte" romanised. "Jitte" is the correct Japanese name.

As I said, "jutte" is a possible candidate for an English name for the weapon. But so is "jitte", and while there might be reasonable grounds for saying that "jutte" is correct, or even better, as an English name, there are no reasonable grounds for saying that "jitte" is wrong.

I usually use "jutte" as the English name, or note the use of both "jutte" and "jitte" for the weapon. I think "jutte" is more common.

(Stone gives "jit-te" and "jittei".)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

As I said, "jutte" is a possible candidate for an English name for the weapon. But so is "jitte", and while there might be reasonable grounds for saying that "jutte" is correct, or even better, as an English name, there are no reasonable grounds for saying that "jitte" is wrong.

I usually use "jutte" as the English name, or note the use of both "jutte" and "jitte" for the weapon. I think "jutte" is more common.

(Stone gives "jit-te" and "jittei".)

Timo, the only name for the hand held spear is jitte, that leaves jutte for the truncheon, the only people that call the truncheon a jitte are not aware that there is a hand held spear called a jitte. What the correct pronounciation in Japanese is does not matter here in the West, and even Japanese dealers and collectors caqn not agree on the correct Japanese term.

Stone was not aware of the jitte so of course he may have used an older term for the jutte, again people who are not aware of the jitte will not understand the correct WESTERN terms, which is what we are discussing. It makes absolutely no sense to say that the truncheon is both a jitte and jutte, but of course you are free to call them whatever you want.

[kronckew]

i'll let you two decide.

reversing an arguement, i'd think if the police truncheon thingy is much more common than the folding guard spear thingy, it's transliteration as jitte should prevail & we should call the spear thingy something else, ie. yarijitte. as mentioned we gaijin can call it whatever we decide. like a spanish falcata which was never called that by the contemporary spanish.

just another oint in the flyment, there is a katae kata called 'jitte' using the same japanes characters, ten hands. again because it teaches you to be as effective as ten.

in fact there seems to be no reason not to call all three jitte in japan.

it's a bit like mc donalds suing the scottish undertakers for using the name. i'm unl;ikely to go into the latter and ask for a hamburger. and if i say i'm off to mc donalds for lunch, there is no ambiguity (unless of course i am a goul )

the japanese book on the subject referenced in the video link i posted above seems to also be ambivilalent, and references both weapons as well as intermediary ones like the one above, ones without hooks and ones with many hooks. i's buy the book, but i don't read (or speak) japanese.

thanks to all for a most interesting discussion. どうもありがとうございました.

[Timo Nieminen]

I think that if the truncheon were newly discovered by the English-speaking world, "jitte" would be the best choice for its English name. However, "jutte" is already out there, and common. We could bypass the question and just write "十手".

(Not that using Chinese characters frees us from ambiguity. One interesting and annoying ambiguity is that the same character is used for catapult and cannon. Makes it hard to tell which is used in early sources. Even descriptions of explosions doesn't help, since catapults were used to throw gunpowder bombs.)

Of course, if I was the One Who Decides Correct Usage, I could pick one and decree it to be the One True Name for the truncheon. But since I'm not in that position of authority, I'll just have to let the community decide.

My jutte/jitte, except for some overtly modern martial arts ones, are shown here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16220

[kronckew]

じって and 十手 both google translate into english as 'truncheon'. both have the transliteration of 'jitte' under the two japanese forms.

i suggest we need a japanese citizen to decide what we are to call something from their history...prefereably a weapons collector/dealer. i will ask mine.

edited:
i just did (he must be up late).

...
We call both Jitte and Jutte.
You can see wiki in detail
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitte
Thank you,
Tachi

i'll ask what he calls the yarijitte.

[kronckew]

aha! i should read tachi's ref. first:

it's a karakuri jitte


edited:
tachi says:

It is kind of Jitte or Jutte.
We call Marohoshi

[kronckew]

just added a kabutowari jitte/jutte to the japanese part of my collection, on it's way from japan.

supposedly showa period, 1926–1989 - prbably latter part.

roughly 25 in. LOA, 'blade/hook' about 14.5 in. in mounts and saya. 645grams in saya. metal fittings look untarnished - gold/gold plated?