Basket hilted swords

[E.B. Erickson]

On the blade of Cathey's latest baskethilt post: take a look at the blade of her S hilt brass basket on page 1 of this thread. Same blade. I have personally seen multiple examples of this blade type in the brass S hilts of the mid 1700s, and as I recall, Neumann shows one as well. That being said, my bet is that they are German imports of the 1700s.

--ElJay

[Cathey]

HI Guys, another British basket

BASKET-HILT c1745 British Dragoons
Overall Length: 117 cm, (46.1 inches)
Blade length: 101.5 cm, (40 inches) Back blade from hilt for 58cm
Blade widest point: 3.128 cm (1.2 inches)
Marks, etc: Remnants of etched pattern inlaid with gold on both sides. Scottish thistle and sun design still evident

Description
BASKET-HILT British Dragoon Guards Troopers Sword pattern 1745. Unusually Large Basket hilt with typical heart design and English style Bun Pommel. Wide central fuller full length of blade, slight remnants of etched pattern inlaid with gold on both sides. Scottish thistle and sun design still evident. Blade is 101.5 cm, back blade from hilt for 58cm.

Dragoons were originally intended to be used as mounted infantry. In the early 18th century, cavalry was divided into 2 categories - regts of horse and regts of dragoons. The regts of horse were used in the traditional role of heavy cavalry - i.e. shock action. Dragoons were used mainly for reconnaissance - and usually fought dismounted in battle.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND pp 282
MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp97 Fig Fle & 125, Fig F17c
Scottish Sword & Shield Catalogue September 1994 Pp 6 No 8.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction Spring 1996 15/5/96 Lot 126.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction Spring 1998 7/10/99 Lot 82.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction 5/5/04 Lot 52
WILKINSON LATHAM, John, SWORDS IN COLOUR Plate 29.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

On the blade of Cathey's latest baskethilt post: take a look at the blade of her S hilt brass basket on page 1 of this thread. Same blade. I have personally seen multiple examples of this blade type in the brass S hilts of the mid 1700s, and as I recall, Neumann shows one as well. That being said, my bet is that they are German imports of the 1700s.

--ElJay

so then my thought in #181 might be right?

[Battara]

Coming to the party late, I am thankful to you folks for this thread. I didn't know there was an Irish hilt! Now that I have some slight idea of that, I am confused on the Scottish. I know Cathy you mentioned that British and Scottish hilts are hard to distinguish, so would it then be in the pommel buns that would be the decider between Scottish and British styles?

BTW - I have always been interested in Scottish basket hilts, especially during the 18th century. One day when I grow up, I'll own one..........

[Cathey]

Hi

Sadly their is not absolute way to be certain about the origin of many basket hilts by pommel alone. However, this is a good start. Generally the typical bun pommel will indicate an English sword etc. The trap is that swords get damaged over time and repaired locally and the blacksmith may not be to particular about which pommel they put back on a sword being repaired etc. I have found MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS a good help when it comes to referencing pommel types for age and nationality.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

Here's my next basket.

English, ca. 1620

32 1/2" de blade, with short central fuller.

Excavated condition, but retains part of the grip and both brass wire Turk's head knots. The knucklebows are screwed to the pommel. Interestingly, this basket has the feature of a screw-on capstan. Most hilts of this basic pattern are dated in the late 1500s, but I date this one to the 1620s because of the total lack of the long quillions that characterize earlier examples.

An interesting feature of this sword (and something that I didn't think to photograph!) is what looks like langets at the blade shoulder. However, what appears to be langets are actually a repair. This blade apparently broke right where the tang meets the shoulder. The repair was effected by making a tang that has ears protruding on either side of the blade. The blade was inserted
between the ears and the whole welded back together. I'll be able to access my collection again in a few weeks, and will try to remember to photograph the repair.

[E.B. Erickson]

Another one.

English? Scottish? Probably dates 1680 - 1720 or so.

31 1/2" de blade with two narrow fullers extending about 8" down the blade. No stamps or inscriptions are present.

Hilt of fairly typical form for the late 1600s with plain unpierced panels with some simple filed/engraved lines. The grip appears to be original. An interesting feature of this sword is that rivets have been used to reinforce the hammer welds (see last photo). However, there's also an additional hole by the blade, and what is this hole for??? Securing the liner?
This is one of the lightest basket hilted swords I have seen. The hilt is composed of rather thin elements, and the weight of the sword is about 1.8 pounds.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi

Sadly their is not absolute way to be certain about the origin of many basket hilts by pommel alone. However, this is a good start. Generally the typical bun pommel will indicate an English sword etc. The trap is that swords get damaged over time and repaired locally and the blacksmith may not be to particular about which pommel they put back on a sword being repaired etc. I have found MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS a good help when it comes to referencing pommel types for age and nationality.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

Thank you both. I'll look into this resource.

Jose

[E.B. Erickson]

The first of my Mortuary swords. This one may not even qualify as a basket or half basket (not enough protective bars making up the hilt), but since Mazansky covers Morts in his book, this sword is not inappropriate for this thread!

Mid 1600s in date, with a 32 3/4" de blade inscribed on one side "+ SOLIDEO +" and the other side "+ GLORIA +".

What makes this sword of interest is that it has a thumbring, a feature not found commonly on English swords. The hilt decoration is composed of four grotesque faces, and foliage with some sparse piercings. The grip is one of my restorations, and the diagonal lines seen in places on the blade are artifacts of where some idiot in the past used an angle grinder on it.

[E.B. Erickson]

English, early 1700s.

30" se straight blade with a single back fuller, stamped on both sides with a running fox and SH.

This is apparently a grenadier's baskethilt of the 23rd Regiment: the Royal Welsh Fusileers. The grip is of embossed brass, each side with a crown, POW feathers, the motto "ICH DIEN", and a Hanoverian horse. Neumann shows this same grip design on an S hilted hanger (sword 26S), which is dated to about 1745. I think that the sword shown here is a pattern used ca 1700 by the 23rd. The blade is not shortened, and the fuller ends about 7" from the blade tip.

Mazansky shows several hilts of this type in his book.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

... Mid 1600s in date, with a 32 3/4" de blade inscribed on one side "+ SOLIDEO +" and the other side "+ GLORIA +"...

Hi Eljay.
Most probably there is nothing new in what i am saying but, the term SOLIDEO may have a rather intentional meaning, when inscribed in a sword. As you know, the solideo is a cap used by bishops and such name originates in the latin "soli Deo tollitur", which means "only before god you take it off". I just thought its inscription in a blade will have the same purpose; something like "only in the name of God you will unsheath it" .

[Will M]

By looking at pommels in this post it occurred to me that the pommel of my sword may show it's earlier than 1780's? The marking A57 on both guard and scabbard mouth would be A troop # 57. Should be more of these swords out there?

[Jim McDougall]

This is an interesting variant of the British 'four slot guard' which began around 1750s in the Birmingham horseman/dragoon swords it seems, The clipped tip blades on these were as previously discussed several years ago, a German favored blade feature.

The added guard bars to the hilt do not suggest earlier in my view, and it seems that the 1780s + date previously considered seems more likely.
The WYATT name stamped in the blade seems unusually configured and it does not seem to occur on other blades of this period. It does seem likely a cutlers mark and these of course may have been in a number of trades in business but assembled swords.

In past discussions it seems there was a Joseph Wyatt in England, but no record of his assembling swords.....and a Joseph Wyatt in Philadelphia, a silversmith I believe, working c. 1791-98. I think it is often difficult to consider that although post Revolution, people were still essentially British colonists, and goods from England were still supplied. As we know even into the Federal period swords were traded from England.

Components for swords were used by assemblers in a variety of combinations, and as pommels were often sundry items bought or traded in lots or from other sources, interchanged with other components.
This makes it difficult to estimate the date of a sword which is such an assembled sword, and this pommel is indeed atypical to the taller 'olive' types usually seen on these.

I agree with an earlier comment that unit or regimental numbers on hilts typically suggest British weapon. With the braided wire this sword seems to be intended for an officer, and officers swords were personal property, not issued..so a unit marked hilt seems unusual in this context.

So possibly earlier Solingen blade, British hilt, rewrapped grips, different pommel, assembled in America......Wyatt????
Forensically that would be my speculation at this point, if these components are indeed antique.
Always more research to go.


As for Victorian period reproductions for parlors and smoking rooms in baronial displays...….these regulation type swords and weapons were not among the favored selections.

[Will M]

Thank-you Jim for your insight. When I first acquired the sword I thought having a name on the blade would make it easy to research, not the case.
I'm told similar examples are in the Royal Armouries but I have no way to see these short of flying over the ocean.
If it's true the sword was used in the American Revolution I'd love to be able to place it there.
Finding a similar example has become quite challenging and without success.
I'll keep plugging away at it as I'm sure the end result will be rewarding.

[Bakerbarang]

I'm new to the forum and am an experienced collector of British Ordnance Flintlock weapons. My experience of swords is, however, very limited and I am seeking to learn from the obvious experience represented in this thread.
A few weeks ago I stumbled on an add on Craigslist - a person was selling three swords. Two of them were tourist trinkets (not actually swords), one appeared to be a British Victorian sword with the grip broken off but the third was a basket hilt. The Craigslist photo was terrible with the swords being almost silhouettes, but the outline of the basket hilt made me suspicious that it wasn’t junk. So, I met the person in a dark and gloomy house but even in the darkness I could see enough to know it was a real sword. I purchased it and took it out to the car in a garbage bag where I could have a real look in the daylight – I was not disappointed. It is a nice sword but I’m still not quite sure what I have. I was initially thinking a 17th century blade with a late 18th century hilt. The hilt, at first, looked like a later style but the presence of small curved quillons and short langets tends to point to something earlier. Am I right here? The more I looked at it (the overall condition and pommel riveting) it looked original and un-messed with. A gentle clean of the blade revealed markings which look old. So, do I have a 17th century Scottish sword? Internet searches reveal very little to guide me and the only text reference I can find to anything similar in form are on page 61 and 62 of Mazansky’s British Basket-Hilted Swords. But all of this represents my guesswork. I'm hoping some of you can guide me since the sword learning curve is extremely steep and Im having trouble putting this sword in some sort of age and ethnic context.

Any ideas/advice would be appreciated?

Anyway, I’m thrilled to have found this sword in a pile of unrecognized junk on Craigslist!

Thanks for your time.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum Baker ...
I am not the indicated person to enlighten you on your sword but, being a fan of marks, let me ask you if you have tried to decipher what that mark on the blade is about ?

[Battara]

Nice catch! I too got a great catch from Craigs list long ago.

Anyway, though your piece is truly old, it is an English and not Scottish basket hilt. The symbols? - I'll leave that to others.