Afghan Pistol

Kubur · 20th June 2015, 08:28 PM

Another one...

AJ1356 · 21st June 2015, 04:07 AM

There may have been afghan muzzle roader pistols at some point or might have been captured or trade British pistols, since there are drawings that show them. Even back in 2002 when everything else was somewhat cheaper, original pistols were hard to find and super expesive. This was a really nice replica, much nicer that most I have seen.

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2015, 06:33 PM

This is indeed a very attractive example of the commercial products of the Khyber regions, and the MOP inlay is much like what is applied to the 'camel guns' (jezails) .
This, like most of the other pistols usually seen, is a copy of the British cavalry pistols of the mid 19th c which were most often percussion (many to India were indeed flintlock as seen in native regts) As can be seen here, the lock is a flintlock which typically is argued as preferred as they could be kept serviceable more easily than percussion, and caps were hard to come by.
The 'rampant lion' mark here became the mark of the East India Co. around 1816-20s. The irregular date stamp is correctly positioned for the early model pistols which used the familiar quadranted heart shape of the EIC, however is of course incongruent.

The date is clearly post EIC, as after the 1857 rebellion, the company was nationalized, and by 1874 defunct.

While these features of course add to the attractive appearance alluding to authenticity, they are clear indicators of the fact this is indeed a 'Khyber copy', and the skills of these artisans.

Kubur · 22nd June 2015, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This, like most of the other pistols usually seen, is a copy of the British cavalry pistols of the mid 19th c which were most often percussion (many to India were indeed flintlock as seen in native regts)
While these features of course add to the attractive appearance alluding to authenticity, they are clear indicators of the fact this is indeed a 'Khyber copy', and the skills of these artisans.

Dear Jim,
Thank you for these historical informations. It's very interesting as up to now I had only one page to read in Tirri's book... Tirri wrote that the British established some factories in Persia. Would it be possible that the khyber guns were made in Persia and decorated in the khyber pass?

Regards,
Kubur

Jim McDougall · 28th June 2015, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Jim,
Thank you for these historical informations. It's very interesting as up to now I had only one page to read in Tirri's book... Tirri wrote that the British established some factories in Persia. Would it be possible that the khyber guns were made in Persia and decorated in the khyber pass?

Regards,
Kubur

You are most welcome Kubur! and again, thank you for these great postings. Also nicely done on the pages on the Persian connection.
The Tirri book is a great collectors handbook, nicely illustrated but seriously lacking in text and explanatory detail in my opinion. I still consider it an outstanding resource visually.
Actually in addition to the British participation in the Persian enterprises in arms, they were very active in Afghanistan, notably Kabul, where they subsidized the Machin Khana factory. Though here the focus was on the Enfield rifles and some bayonets and edged weapons, one cannot help but wonder if any of these pistols might have been produced there.
The flintlock remained a favored weapon in tribal units, even in the fascinating 'irregular' regiments of cavalry until end of the 19th c.

The 'Poonah' horse is a fascinating unit among the very exciting study of the colorful cavalry regiments of the British Raj. When I first began collecting swords back in the 60s it was all about the British cavalry swords, and soon focused on these native regiments. Most intriguing are the hybrid weapons such as tulwars with British blades etc.

The 'Great Game' indeed was a culmination of world powers in this 'cockpit of Europe' in the 19th century, which had echoed the same kinds of conflicts through the centuries there in these Central Asian regions. As well noted, it continues as we speak, and I have had a son; son in law and grandson, all having served in Afghanistan over the past decade. I could never have imagined that when I began studying these regions almost 50 years ago!

'Shake the Trees'....absolutely outstanding data, well researched and presented...thank you!

Best regards,
Jim

rickystl · 18th July 2015, 06:43 PM

"BUMP"
This being a fairly recent Thread, I thought I would bump this forward and add a new addition I just received this week. And this one is in percussion, with all the hallmarks of a Kyber made gun. All iron mounted. Missing it's nose cap, a couple of the white bone inlys, some stock damage, etc.

The lock is complete and in working order, but the mainspring is a little weak. What looks like a stud for what once may have been a swivel ramrod, actually has a small piece of broken chain in it. And the hole looks too small for a pin for a swivel rod.

Not sure. There are multiple marks of the same stamp on the breech and tang. Have no idea what it means. This gun looks like it's seen a lot of action. I do plan on having it restored, but keeping within the overall integrity of the piece. I'll post BEFORE and AFTER pictures at a later date.
This piece does fill a void in my collection. These Afghan pistols, even in Kyber type construction, seem hard to come by. So I'm happy to get it. Here are a few pics. Rick.

kahnjar1 · 18th July 2015, 08:28 PM

Hi Rick,
Interesting piece and look forward to seeing it restored.
You make mention of marks on the breech and tang.......can you show us these please.
Stu

Shakethetrees · 19th July 2015, 05:24 AM

[/QUOTE] The 'Poonah' horse is a fascinating unit among the very exciting study of the colorful cavalry regiments of the British Raj. When I first began collecting swords back in the 60s it was all about the British cavalry swords, and soon focused on these native regiments. Most intriguing are the hybrid weapons such as tulwars with British blades etc.

The 'Great Game' indeed was a culmination of world powers in this 'cockpit of Europe' in the 19th century, which had echoed the same kinds of conflicts through the centuries there in these Central Asian regions. As well noted, it continues as we speak, and I have had a son; son in law and grandson, all having served in Afghanistan over the past decade. I could never have imagined that when I began studying these regions almost 50 years ago!

'Shake the Trees'....absolutely outstanding data, well researched and presented...thank you!

Best regards,
Jim[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Jim, this pistol has been so fascinating I can't put down! In some ways, it's not necessarily what I collect, but the history is so engrossing, with still much to be uncovered, I just keep going. And, it's such a pretty, well thought out design to boot, and evocative of a lost romantic era!

I will create a new thread when I get more.

Jim McDougall · 19th July 2015, 05:49 AM

Shake the Trees, beware, this field is addicting!!!

As I noted, I was soon so heavily into all the native regiments, and I recall one sabre I wanted badly, but the guy would not let go.
It was a Bombay cavalry sabre, beautifully etched etc.
What was incredible was where he got it. I was in Southern Calif then, and apparently one of the big movie studios had been clearing prop warehouses, and there were a bunch of swords from the old 30s movies. This was one of 'em!
They filmed all the old classics out in the desert and valley areas like "Lives of a Bengal Lancer"; "Gunga Din"; and so many others.

One of my favorite memories was visiting a British Brigadier who as a young officer had led one of the last mounted British cavalry charges near the plains in Khyber regions in the 1930s. He authored a book "Last of the Bengal Lancers" (1980s, Brig. Francis Ingall) and had been attached to the 13th Bengal Lancers.

It would be great to see more threads on the weaponry of these units.
Great Britain produced many weapons for these cavalry units, and I once had several tulwars made by Mole of Birmingham.

20th June 2015, 08:28 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Another one... Attached Images

18th July 2015, 06:43 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	"BUMP" This being a fairly recent Thread, I thought I would bump this forward and add a new addition I just received this week. And this one is in percussion, with all the hallmarks of a Kyber made gun. All iron mounted. Missing it's nose cap, a couple of the white bone inlys, some stock damage, etc. The lock is complete and in working order, but the mainspring is a little weak. What looks like a stud for what once may have been a swivel ramrod, actually has a small piece of broken chain in it. And the hole looks too small for a pin for a swivel rod. Not sure. There are multiple marks of the same stamp on the breech and tang. Have no idea what it means. This gun looks like it's seen a lot of action. I do plan on having it restored, but keeping within the overall integrity of the piece. I'll post BEFORE and AFTER pictures at a later date. This piece does fill a void in my collection. These Afghan pistols, even in Kyber type construction, seem hard to come by. So I'm happy to get it. Here are a few pics. Rick. Attached Images

21st June 2015, 04:07 AM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	There may have been afghan muzzle roader pistols at some point or might have been captured or trade British pistols, since there are drawings that show them. Even back in 2002 when everything else was somewhat cheaper, original pistols were hard to find and super expesive. This was a really nice replica, much nicer that most I have seen.

21st June 2015, 06:33 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,610	This is indeed a very attractive example of the commercial products of the Khyber regions, and the MOP inlay is much like what is applied to the 'camel guns' (jezails) . This, like most of the other pistols usually seen, is a copy of the British cavalry pistols of the mid 19th c which were most often percussion (many to India were indeed flintlock as seen in native regts) As can be seen here, the lock is a flintlock which typically is argued as preferred as they could be kept serviceable more easily than percussion, and caps were hard to come by. The 'rampant lion' mark here became the mark of the East India Co. around 1816-20s. The irregular date stamp is correctly positioned for the early model pistols which used the familiar quadranted heart shape of the EIC, however is of course incongruent. The date is clearly post EIC, as after the 1857 rebellion, the company was nationalized, and by 1874 defunct. While these features of course add to the attractive appearance alluding to authenticity, they are clear indicators of the fact this is indeed a 'Khyber copy', and the skills of these artisans.

18th July 2015, 08:28 PM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,810	Hi Rick, Interesting piece and look forward to seeing it restored. You make mention of marks on the breech and tang.......can you show us these please. Stu

19th July 2015, 05:24 AM	#8
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	[/QUOTE] The 'Poonah' horse is a fascinating unit among the very exciting study of the colorful cavalry regiments of the British Raj. When I first began collecting swords back in the 60s it was all about the British cavalry swords, and soon focused on these native regiments. Most intriguing are the hybrid weapons such as tulwars with British blades etc. The 'Great Game' indeed was a culmination of world powers in this 'cockpit of Europe' in the 19th century, which had echoed the same kinds of conflicts through the centuries there in these Central Asian regions. As well noted, it continues as we speak, and I have had a son; son in law and grandson, all having served in Afghanistan over the past decade. I could never have imagined that when I began studying these regions almost 50 years ago! 'Shake the Trees'....absolutely outstanding data, well researched and presented...thank you! Best regards, Jim[/QUOTE] Thanks, Jim, this pistol has been so fascinating I can't put down! In some ways, it's not necessarily what I collect, but the history is so engrossing, with still much to be uncovered, I just keep going. And, it's such a pretty, well thought out design to boot, and evocative of a lost romantic era! I will create a new thread when I get more.

19th July 2015, 05:49 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,610	Shake the Trees, beware, this field is addicting!!! As I noted, I was soon so heavily into all the native regiments, and I recall one sabre I wanted badly, but the guy would not let go. It was a Bombay cavalry sabre, beautifully etched etc. What was incredible was where he got it. I was in Southern Calif then, and apparently one of the big movie studios had been clearing prop warehouses, and there were a bunch of swords from the old 30s movies. This was one of 'em! They filmed all the old classics out in the desert and valley areas like "Lives of a Bengal Lancer"; "Gunga Din"; and so many others. One of my favorite memories was visiting a British Brigadier who as a young officer had led one of the last mounted British cavalry charges near the plains in Khyber regions in the 1930s. He authored a book "Last of the Bengal Lancers" (1980s, Brig. Francis Ingall) and had been attached to the 13th Bengal Lancers. It would be great to see more threads on the weaponry of these units. Great Britain produced many weapons for these cavalry units, and I once had several tulwars made by Mole of Birmingham.