How old is the kampilan as a form?

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2015, 06:43 PM

Thank you very much Ibrahiim for the quick response!

It is interesting what you note on the fact that most people in specific countries typically are not familiar with names and terminology of the weapons regarded as indigenous there.
Here in Texas, most people would of course know what a Bowie knife is, but few would know anything on its history or specific form.

What I hope to discover, especially as I know many of the members here have collected amazing examples of the kampilan over the years, is that perhaps they have seen documentation, examples and illustration which might establish early use of the form.

Also, thank you for the link to Bill's thread from 2008! I forgot about that

oops, maybe we might just expand on it here?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th June 2015, 06:50 PM

see also http://old.blades.free.fr/swords/kle...ilan/kam01.htm

CharlesS · 20th June 2015, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is interesting what you note on the fact that most people in specific countries typically are not familiar with names and terminology of the weapons regarded as indigenous there.
Here in Texas, most people would of course know what a Bowie knife is, but few would know anything on its history or specific form.

Related, but on a different subject: I have never met a Moroccan that had heard of the word "koummya", even though they were very aware of the famous Moroccan jambiya style most of us know so well. They all saw pics or the real thing and said it's a "khandjar".

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2015, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Related, but on a different subject: I have never met a Moroccan that had heard of the word "koummya", even though they were very aware of the famous Moroccan jambiya style most of us know so well. They all saw pics or the real thing and said it's a "khandjar".

That is amazing Charles! Remember how many years it took to find the origin of 'kaskara' , a word nobody in the Sudan ever heard of.......the janbiyya/ katar thing......the term shotel in Ethiopia.........ettc.

It seems most of these weapons were named or termed by collectors or contemporary narrators, while locals always used more general terms which were far more collective. In many cases, terms for sword, knife were alike or in use in that way.
That is one of the frustrating dilemmas in trying to accurately trace the lineage in development of so many forms.

ariel · 21st June 2015, 05:10 AM

Karud may be another example.
Elgood and Flindt admitted that they could never find the true origin of this word and suggested that it was just a misheard spelling of "Kard" by the early Europeans.
I did a very non-scientific test: asked an Iranian girl working with us to show her multiple Iranian relatives a photo of "Karud" and name it .

Well, all the younger or female members of her family called it "khanjar" ( which it is obviously not :-), but older males uniformly called it "Kard". Perhaps, Charles' conundrum is due to the fact that he spoke with the youngsters of his age:-) , who were into iPads and Apple watches, but just plainly ignorant about bladed weapons. Those children....

I asked my co-worker to pronounce the word , and she did it several times. Each time I thought I heard a hidden vowel sound between the two consonants:-)

Paging Professor Higgins :-)

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2015, 02:49 PM

I think most of the confusion with classifying terms applied to the various forms of ethnographic weapons derives from the 'western' need to have things neatly categorized. This in turn may be considered to result from the 'collecting' phenomenon in which it is necessary to classify and identify specimens in order to describe and record them, just as in scientific cases where assessment of them would be useless using random terms.

As has been shown here and in many instances over the years, local descriptions of weapons are characteristically colloquial and broadly applied.
Seemingly in many, if not most cases, the action verb, to cut, becomes the key word important to locals, who care little about classifying terms.

In looking into some of the earlier threads here, it seems that perhaps the 'kampilan' term might have some Spanish origin as it was used in their narratives and accounts years after the events described. Some of the early descriptions use the term 'cutlass' which is of course a European term also of much later origin.

In trying to establish the earliest period and origin of the form, some of the material in other threads suggests that perhaps the 'klewang' might have been the source, but inconclusively as far as I could determine.

While often in our study of the development of ethnographic forms, the emphasis on 'the name game' is decried as nonsensical and irrelevant, it is clear that when the only available descriptive material consists of narratives and contemporary accounts, it becomes almost essential.

In most other kinds of research, certain archaic words have changed meaning; geographic names have changed; counties or principalities have merged or changed etc. As we study weapons and without the benefit of visual evidence from real time, it becomes important to know what terms might have been used in local descriptions, as well as by those who may have transcribed or transliterated these descriptions.

Even visual evidence such as art or iconography becomes suspect as we consider artistic license or political or fashion oriented infusion. In the case of classical art, case in point Rembrandt, often anachronistic and out of context arms may be used such as Indonesian weapons in his Biblically themed paintings.

I guess I've gone onto a tangent here relating to the importance of terms in written records as well as examples in visual examples of art, but it seemed key to the kind of examination we are pursuing here.

Mercenary · 3rd October 2015, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Karud may be another example.
Elgood and Flindt admitted that they could never find the true origin of this word and suggested that it was just a misheard spelling of "Kard" by the early Europeans.
I did a very non-scientific test: asked an Iranian girl working with us to show her multiple Iranian relatives a photo of "Karud" and name it .

Well, all the younger or female members of her family called it "khanjar" ( which it is obviously not :-), but older males uniformly called it "Kard". Perhaps, Charles' conundrum is due to the fact that he spoke with the youngsters of his age:-) , who were into iPads and Apple watches, but just plainly ignorant about bladed weapons. Those children....

I asked my co-worker to pronounce the word , and she did it several times. Each time I thought I heard a hidden vowel sound between the two consonants:-)

Paging Professor Higgins :-)

It is true. The Indians pronounce the word "kard" as "karot", "karod", "karud" too. As far as I remember in Ain-i-Akbari a knife that worn on rope (that is kard) is called as "karaed".

VANDOO · 4th October 2015, 06:33 AM

MY FEELING IS THAT THE GENERAL BLADE SHAPE OF THE KAMPILIAN IS A OLD ONE. PERHAPS CLUES MAY BE FOUND IN THE HISTORY AND ARTIFACTS OF THE DIFFERENT PEOPLES WHO MIGRATED INTO THE AREAS WHERE IT IS FOUND. I SUSPECT THE PROTO- KAMPILIAN HAD A MUCH SHORTER BLADE PERHAPS THE SIZE OF THE TIBOLI AND BAGOBO BLADES. STEEL WAS MORE RARE AND EXPENSIVE IN THOSE DAYS FOR ONE REASON AND AS IT WAS MOSTLY FOR USE IN THE JUNGLE WHERE A LONG KNIFE IS MORE OF A HINDRANCE THAN AN ADVANTAGE. WHEN AND WHY THE TIP AND HANDLE DESIGNS WERE FORMED IS A MYSTERY TO ME BUT I AM SURE THEY HAD HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT MEANING IN THE EARLY SOCIETIES WHEN THEY DEVELOPED.

20th June 2015, 06:43 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you very much Ibrahiim for the quick response! It is interesting what you note on the fact that most people in specific countries typically are not familiar with names and terminology of the weapons regarded as indigenous there. Here in Texas, most people would of course know what a Bowie knife is, but few would know anything on its history or specific form. What I hope to discover, especially as I know many of the members here have collected amazing examples of the kampilan over the years, is that perhaps they have seen documentation, examples and illustration which might establish early use of the form. Also, thank you for the link to Bill's thread from 2008! I forgot about that oops, maybe we might just expand on it here?

20th June 2015, 06:50 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	see also http://old.blades.free.fr/swords/kle...ilan/kam01.htm

21st June 2015, 05:10 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Karud may be another example. Elgood and Flindt admitted that they could never find the true origin of this word and suggested that it was just a misheard spelling of "Kard" by the early Europeans. I did a very non-scientific test: asked an Iranian girl working with us to show her multiple Iranian relatives a photo of "Karud" and name it . Well, all the younger or female members of her family called it "khanjar" ( which it is obviously not :-), but older males uniformly called it "Kard". Perhaps, Charles' conundrum is due to the fact that he spoke with the youngsters of his age:-) , who were into iPads and Apple watches, but just plainly ignorant about bladed weapons. Those children.... I asked my co-worker to pronounce the word , and she did it several times. Each time I thought I heard a hidden vowel sound between the two consonants:-) Paging Professor Higgins :-)

21st June 2015, 02:49 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I think most of the confusion with classifying terms applied to the various forms of ethnographic weapons derives from the 'western' need to have things neatly categorized. This in turn may be considered to result from the 'collecting' phenomenon in which it is necessary to classify and identify specimens in order to describe and record them, just as in scientific cases where assessment of them would be useless using random terms. As has been shown here and in many instances over the years, local descriptions of weapons are characteristically colloquial and broadly applied. Seemingly in many, if not most cases, the action verb, to cut, becomes the key word important to locals, who care little about classifying terms. In looking into some of the earlier threads here, it seems that perhaps the 'kampilan' term might have some Spanish origin as it was used in their narratives and accounts years after the events described. Some of the early descriptions use the term 'cutlass' which is of course a European term also of much later origin. In trying to establish the earliest period and origin of the form, some of the material in other threads suggests that perhaps the 'klewang' might have been the source, but inconclusively as far as I could determine. While often in our study of the development of ethnographic forms, the emphasis on 'the name game' is decried as nonsensical and irrelevant, it is clear that when the only available descriptive material consists of narratives and contemporary accounts, it becomes almost essential. In most other kinds of research, certain archaic words have changed meaning; geographic names have changed; counties or principalities have merged or changed etc. As we study weapons and without the benefit of visual evidence from real time, it becomes important to know what terms might have been used in local descriptions, as well as by those who may have transcribed or transliterated these descriptions. Even visual evidence such as art or iconography becomes suspect as we consider artistic license or political or fashion oriented infusion. In the case of classical art, case in point Rembrandt, often anachronistic and out of context arms may be used such as Indonesian weapons in his Biblically themed paintings. I guess I've gone onto a tangent here relating to the importance of terms in written records as well as examples in visual examples of art, but it seemed key to the kind of examination we are pursuing here.

4th October 2015, 06:33 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MY FEELING IS THAT THE GENERAL BLADE SHAPE OF THE KAMPILIAN IS A OLD ONE. PERHAPS CLUES MAY BE FOUND IN THE HISTORY AND ARTIFACTS OF THE DIFFERENT PEOPLES WHO MIGRATED INTO THE AREAS WHERE IT IS FOUND. I SUSPECT THE PROTO- KAMPILIAN HAD A MUCH SHORTER BLADE PERHAPS THE SIZE OF THE TIBOLI AND BAGOBO BLADES. STEEL WAS MORE RARE AND EXPENSIVE IN THOSE DAYS FOR ONE REASON AND AS IT WAS MOSTLY FOR USE IN THE JUNGLE WHERE A LONG KNIFE IS MORE OF A HINDRANCE THAN AN ADVANTAGE. WHEN AND WHY THE TIP AND HANDLE DESIGNS WERE FORMED IS A MYSTERY TO ME BUT I AM SURE THEY HAD HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT MEANING IN THE EARLY SOCIETIES WHEN THEY DEVELOPED.