Tomas Aiala Cup hilt rapier.

Jim McDougall · 18th June 2015, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Still citing Sir James Mann, the Ayala name was frequently used as a kind of trade label, indicative of a certain type of blade, rather than any intention to deceive.

Thank you Nando!!! I had missed your response as I was caught up in the fascinating detour on fencing rules on blades etc , pretty intriguing to see how much regulation there really was concerning these swords.
Indeed, it does seem the Ayala name did become a sort of trademark as discussed with Andrea Ferara, Sahagum and others.
I wish we had as much recoded data on the use of these names and marks as we seem to have on all these regulations on lengths etc.

Ibrahiim, thank you for spotting this fascinating site you linked! You are always amazing finding these outstanding online resources!

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 21st June 2015, 01:28 PM

Here is a comparison between a sword within mark and two examples off mark.
Says the author Eduardo Nobre that, while legal swords had five palms total length, these ilegal examples had seven palms of blade alone.
He proceeds saying that indeed their unsheathing and carrying around was rather problematic, besides the difficulty to fence with blades of such length, they managed to keep at distance the most adventurous adversary.

.

fernando · 21st June 2015, 01:42 PM

The fame of ancient Toledan steels was based on the mastership with which some smiths handled its temper, without any technical knowledge nor any instrument able to measure, even remotely, the adequate temperatures for such treatment. The temperature they knew it by the color of burning steel and the time of immersion in the water, by means of prayer, verses or songs allusive to the craft. People in general attributed such quality of steel to the water of the river Tagus, in which swords were tempered.

fernando · 21st June 2015, 01:52 PM

Santiago de Palomares, author of the famous sword smiths nomina, also commissioned by King Carlos III in 1775 to create the Royal factory of swords in Toledo, left it written that, the steel that they spent in the fabrication of Toledan swords, since its beginning was that of the old factory of Modragon, unique in Spain at the time, celebrated in almost all world as rich and abounding and which swords, after some centuries, prevail today of quality so outstanding that they are appreciated by the major part of world nations for their strength, beauty and the finest temper.

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2015, 03:59 PM

Fernando, thank you so much for this exacting detail on the character of these weapons as well as the texture of their making and the atmosphere of the time. It is as always, colorfully described as you do masterfully, and makes me appreciate these all the more!!! (as if I could be any more obsessed with them!!!

Thank you,

Jim

M ELEY · 21st June 2015, 05:25 PM

Bravo, Fernando! I also wish to thank you on the dissertation of such magnificent blades! Just like Jim, I'm really taken in by these swords and their colorful history!

fernando · 21st June 2015, 05:44 PM

According to the legend, the first tempered steels were developed by mere accident in Toledo, where the Royal Armoury was located in the middle ages. Based on a mix of cruelty and servility, the royal smith had the idea to pierce a prisioner of war (probably a Moor or a sympathizer), captured in the wars against Arab domination. Needless to say that such sword had been turned red hot, to commit the symbolic act, ritual death or blood baptism, the result being overpowering; the sword has hardened or TEMPERED, using the body of a man as cooling agent of the process. Facing the discovery and after the surprise, all nobility commissioned their Toledana, upon which they ran out of slaves for the sacrifice and, by disastrous analogy and enemy despise, slaves were replaced by deer who died in the process, tempering swords, until it occurred to someone that the issue of having to kill someone or some animal for the temper of steel would be a superstition ... and so proofed by doing it with water, or oil, achieving the same results, and so it is done until now in this west side of the planet.

ulfberth · 22nd June 2015, 12:01 PM

Kind regards Ulfberth ....

fernando · 3rd August 2015, 05:50 PM

Curious event,
... In which Master Lucas, a Biscayne sword smith resident in Lisbon, having being found with four 'black' swords greater than the mark, was arrested and later released with 100 cruzados bail, from which he ended up being pardoned... not without having to pay 1000 reaes for the Hospital of All Saints.

.

21st June 2015, 01:28 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Here is a comparison between a sword within mark and two examples off mark. Says the author Eduardo Nobre that, while legal swords had five palms total length, these ilegal examples had seven palms of blade alone. He proceeds saying that indeed their unsheathing and carrying around was rather problematic, besides the difficulty to fence with blades of such length, they managed to keep at distance the most adventurous adversary. . Attached Images

21st June 2015, 01:42 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Toledan legends The fame of ancient Toledan steels was based on the mastership with which some smiths handled its temper, without any technical knowledge nor any instrument able to measure, even remotely, the adequate temperatures for such treatment. The temperature they knew it by the color of burning steel and the time of immersion in the water, by means of prayer, verses or songs allusive to the craft. People in general attributed such quality of steel to the water of the river Tagus, in which swords were tempered.

21st June 2015, 01:52 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Toledo legends part II Santiago de Palomares, author of the famous sword smiths nomina, also commissioned by King Carlos III in 1775 to create the Royal factory of swords in Toledo, left it written that, the steel that they spent in the fabrication of Toledan swords, since its beginning was that of the old factory of Modragon, unique in Spain at the time, celebrated in almost all world as rich and abounding and which swords, after some centuries, prevail today of quality so outstanding that they are appreciated by the major part of world nations for their strength, beauty and the finest temper.

21st June 2015, 05:44 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Toledo legends part III ... dedicated to Jim According to the legend, the first tempered steels were developed by mere accident in Toledo, where the Royal Armoury was located in the middle ages. Based on a mix of cruelty and servility, the royal smith had the idea to pierce a prisioner of war (probably a Moor or a sympathizer), captured in the wars against Arab domination. Needless to say that such sword had been turned red hot, to commit the symbolic act, ritual death or blood baptism, the result being overpowering; the sword has hardened or TEMPERED, using the body of a man as cooling agent of the process. Facing the discovery and after the surprise, all nobility commissioned their Toledana, upon which they ran out of slaves for the sacrifice and, by disastrous analogy and enemy despise, slaves were replaced by deer who died in the process, tempering swords, until it occurred to someone that the issue of having to kill someone or some animal for the temper of steel would be a superstition ... and so proofed by doing it with water, or oil, achieving the same results, and so it is done until now in this west side of the planet.

22nd June 2015, 12:01 PM	#8
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 439	To Jim and all Toledo and Alatriste admirers Kind regards Ulfberth .... Attached Images

21st June 2015, 03:59 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,675	Fernando, thank you so much for this exacting detail on the character of these weapons as well as the texture of their making and the atmosphere of the time. It is as always, colorfully described as you do masterfully, and makes me appreciate these all the more!!! (as if I could be any more obsessed with them!!! Thank you, Jim

21st June 2015, 05:25 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,207	Bravo, Fernando! I also wish to thank you on the dissertation of such magnificent blades! Just like Jim, I'm really taken in by these swords and their colorful history!

3rd August 2015, 05:50 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Curious event, ... In which Master Lucas, a Biscayne sword smith resident in Lisbon, having being found with four 'black' swords greater than the mark, was arrested and later released with 100 cruzados bail, from which he ended up being pardoned... not without having to pay 1000 reaes for the Hospital of All Saints. . Attached Images