Go on...show us your Choora!!

Andrew · 13th June 2015, 11:51 PM

Hello, my friend! Hope all is well with you and yours, Jens.

ariel · 14th June 2015, 03:51 AM

Gavin,
Thanks for your input. I am glad we are on the same page re. age of a Choora as a pattern.

I can easily see your point re. smaller choora: it is much cruder and the handle is very primitive.
However, do we really know that such village-level examples were not manufactured in the 19th century? As I mentioned earlier, there must have been local production of simple, inexpensive and replaceable knives made locally, without resorting to fancy blades and expensive materials. We see it with each and every antique oriental weapon.

Egerton, in his comment to #750 mentions Ch'hura, a " strong, heavy knife" made in Khorassan, Kandahar and Jellalabad. Did he have in mind a Choora as we refer to it in this discussion or a Khyber Knife? We will never know, because the main item he described ( #750) is an unquestionable Khyber. However, he mentions Ch'hura in the same breath, as a separate example. Most importantly from my perspective is the mention of both local and imported examples. There mush have been gradations of quality. Pure IMHO :-)

My Pakistani fellow contacted his father-in-law who is a language professor in a small university in Pakhtunkhwa and his friend, a colonel in Pakistani military, who has connections in the Military Museum in Rawalpindi. Regretfully, contacts with Afghani specialists are not possible now.....

ariel · 1st July 2015, 07:45 PM

Another interesting twist:

Harvey Withers, a well-known and respected dealer fom the UK, posted this Choora on E-bay ( it is sold).
The interesting thing is the presense of a lead museum tag with Queen Victoria's mark and , on the reverse, the location of this Choora in the muzeum ( hall and position). This info is per Mr. Withers' information.
Victoria reigned in the 19th century:-)

Tim Simmons · 1st July 2015, 07:53 PM

Unless you can add more information the crown does not mean Victoria.

spiral · 1st July 2015, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Harvey Withers, a well-known and respected dealer from the UK, :-)

His books are full of incredibly misidentified pieces. I suggest you get a couple of his books to read....

ariel · 1st July 2015, 08:47 PM

Please address all queries to Mr. Withers.

I am just a messenger, quoting his description.

Jim McDougall · 3rd July 2015, 06:04 AM

Regarding the lead tag with crown, this may not be technically Queen Victoria's 'mark' ,but it is the crown used during her reign from until her death in 1901. It seems the crown used by Edward VII was slightly different.
It is interesting to see this kind of tag used in identifying holdings in these museums.

I personally have not seen the references published by Mr. Withers, but my experiences with him suggest he does seriously research his material. It is almost certain that errors will occur in most published material, whether directly as an error or revised by subsequent research and findings. I would hesitate to discredit any authors work comprehensively as doing so is in my opinion irresponsible. Disagreement with material should be specific and supported by alternate explanation, and readers be allowed to form their own opinions.

ariel · 3rd July 2015, 01:12 PM

Spiral,
I own and have read at least one of his books. Not being a collector of European military swords, I cannot judge the correctness of his attributions. Nevertheless, they seem to be researched and based on genuine knowledge. I have no reason to doubt his opinion and his integrity.

I really did not like your formatting of the citation of my posting: yours put a "smiley-face" directly after my characterization of Mr. Withers as a "well-known and respected dealer", thus giving an impression that I was sardonic about his reputation. The original posting had no such thing.

In the future, please be more careful with citing other peoples' texts.

Thanks.

1st July 2015, 07:45 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Another interesting twist: Harvey Withers, a well-known and respected dealer fom the UK, posted this Choora on E-bay ( it is sold). The interesting thing is the presense of a lead museum tag with Queen Victoria's mark and , on the reverse, the location of this Choora in the muzeum ( hall and position). This info is per Mr. Withers' information. Victoria reigned in the 19th century:-) Attached Images

13th June 2015, 11:51 PM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hello, my friend! Hope all is well with you and yours, Jens.

14th June 2015, 03:51 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gavin, Thanks for your input. I am glad we are on the same page re. age of a Choora as a pattern. I can easily see your point re. smaller choora: it is much cruder and the handle is very primitive. However, do we really know that such village-level examples were not manufactured in the 19th century? As I mentioned earlier, there must have been local production of simple, inexpensive and replaceable knives made locally, without resorting to fancy blades and expensive materials. We see it with each and every antique oriental weapon. Egerton, in his comment to #750 mentions Ch'hura, a " strong, heavy knife" made in Khorassan, Kandahar and Jellalabad. Did he have in mind a Choora as we refer to it in this discussion or a Khyber Knife? We will never know, because the main item he described ( #750) is an unquestionable Khyber. However, he mentions Ch'hura in the same breath, as a separate example. Most importantly from my perspective is the mention of both local and imported examples. There mush have been gradations of quality. Pure IMHO :-) My Pakistani fellow contacted his father-in-law who is a language professor in a small university in Pakhtunkhwa and his friend, a colonel in Pakistani military, who has connections in the Military Museum in Rawalpindi. Regretfully, contacts with Afghani specialists are not possible now.....

1st July 2015, 07:53 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,842	Unless you can add more information the crown does not mean Victoria.

1st July 2015, 08:47 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Please address all queries to Mr. Withers. I am just a messenger, quoting his description.

3rd July 2015, 06:04 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Regarding the lead tag with crown, this may not be technically Queen Victoria's 'mark' ,but it is the crown used during her reign from until her death in 1901. It seems the crown used by Edward VII was slightly different. It is interesting to see this kind of tag used in identifying holdings in these museums. I personally have not seen the references published by Mr. Withers, but my experiences with him suggest he does seriously research his material. It is almost certain that errors will occur in most published material, whether directly as an error or revised by subsequent research and findings. I would hesitate to discredit any authors work comprehensively as doing so is in my opinion irresponsible. Disagreement with material should be specific and supported by alternate explanation, and readers be allowed to form their own opinions.

3rd July 2015, 01:12 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Spiral, I own and have read at least one of his books. Not being a collector of European military swords, I cannot judge the correctness of his attributions. Nevertheless, they seem to be researched and based on genuine knowledge. I have no reason to doubt his opinion and his integrity. I really did not like your formatting of the citation of my posting: yours put a "smiley-face" directly after my characterization of Mr. Withers as a "well-known and respected dealer", thus giving an impression that I was sardonic about his reputation. The original posting had no such thing. In the future, please be more careful with citing other peoples' texts. Thanks.