Basket hilted swords

Cathey · 8th June 2015, 05:35 AM

Hi Guys

This is actually one of the first Basket hilts I purchased back in 1996 in Adelaide.

BASKET HILT Broad Sword
Date: Hilt Circa 1740 (18th Century), Blade earlier
Nationality: SCOTTISH
Overall Length: 36 ½” 92.9 cm
Blade length: 31 1/16” 79 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.2 cm
Hilt widest point: 5” 12.7 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.8 cm
Marks, etc.: 2 short fullers containing remnants of inscription, only the letters I O H A N T can be read with any certainty. Blade is pitted and has dark patina, possibly predates hilt.

It has been suggested that the name on the blade is Johanus Cole, but with so few letters to go on I am unconvinced at this stage.

Description
BASKET HILT Scottish Broad Sword. The hilt guards are attached to a very prominent and board flat ring under the pommel, which is associated. The space between the rear and additional rear-guards has a very short transverse linking cross-bar, one third of the way up from the blade-end of the hilt. The margins of the plates and shields are scalloped to follow the outline of the piercing. These consist of large coarsely shaped hearts and circles, which give an open appearance to the shield and plates. This hilt has an oval ring on the inside of the hilt. The blade has 2 short fullers containing remnants of inscription, only the letters I O H A N T can be read with any certainty, followed by an anchor mark. Blade is pitted and has dark patina and a number of sharp contact cuts to its edge. I would suggest that the blade definitely predates the hilt.

General Remarks
The same hilt features on a sword in the National Museum of Scotland Edinburgh LA 140

References:
CAMPBELL.A. Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden. pp 54-55
CURTIS, T The Lyle Official Arms and Armour Review 1976 Pp21
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp126 F20.
MOORE, W. Weapons of the American Revolution and Accoutrements. Pp 146, plate E33.
OAKESHOTT, E. European Weapons and Armour. (See Claymore) pp 175-182.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Cathey · 21st June 2015, 04:57 AM

British Basket Hilt Cavalry Backsword c1740-55

Date: Circa 1740-1755 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 101.5 cm (40 inches)
Blade length: 85.6 cm (33.7 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.296 cm (1.3 inches)
Hilt widest point:
Inside grip length:
Marks, etc. Blade has mark on both sides and one deep fuller 61cm 24” long. There is a number painted on the hilt under the buff liner, probably an old museum reference, which appears to be 1831.over 2RS.

Description
Iron hilt consists of a bun pommel with a rather tall cylindrical tang-button, and a basket of more or less conventional Highland type, except that it lacks the addition of rear-guards, and the entire Saltire bars on the forward corner of each shield towards the pommel combine to form a rounded arch. The rear quillon does not project beyond the perimeter of the basket. The bars, which are of flattened rectangular section, are plain and unpierced. The grip is covered in black rayskin, wire binding is missing but brass Turks heads remain. There is a number painted on the hilt under the buff liner, probably an old museum reference, which appears to be 1831.over 2RS. Backsword blade with dark patina has mark on both sides and one deep fuller ¾ length.

General Remarks
Swords of this type were purchased by the colonels of British cavalry regiments, both horse and dragoons, for the use of their men. Comparable weapons are illustrated in the paintings of British heavy cavalry by David Morier, 1751 at Windsor Castle.

References:
Culloden The Swords and the Sorrows The National Trust for Scotland catalogue. Plate 1:51, pp 48.
Mazansky – Cyrill British basket Hilted Swords Pp95, Fig Fla (C1750)

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2015, 05:24 AM

Hi Cathey,
Sure am glad to see you back! as I would like to see this thread continue. These amazing swords are wonderful to see here as they offer so much opportunity to learn more on them.
This latest addition of a mid 18th century dragoon sword is a great example, and with the mysterious oval aperture in the hilt which has been the subject of considerable debate. I am inclined to agree with A. Darling in its most probable purpose to hold reins while handling the pistol in the other hand .

As always, I am drawn to the blades and markings, and this backsword has the inlaid brass (latten) anchor, but curiously situated almost off center near the fuller. As noted in the previous example (post #179) the anchor is seen situated at the terminus of fullers (very much in earlier Spanish styles adopted in Solingen in 17th century). Clearly that offers compelling suggestion the blade is from that century .

In the case of this sword, I am wondering if perhaps this is a backsword blade from a 'mortuary' type sword of mid 17th c. and possibly from the Hounslow factory. It is of course pure speculation at this point, but these German smiths used markings of their Solingen counterparts and often inlaid in latten, most notably the 'running wolf'.
Is it possible this blade could be of such provenance? Its curious position and placement seem to indicate such possibility, however it is known that German blades were brought in later at the turn of the century. Perhaps then this 'anchored' blade could be of that origin?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd June 2015, 11:55 AM

Please see http://www.oldswords.com/articles/Th...words-v1i4.pdf gfor a fine article on the weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

E.B. Erickson · 25th June 2015, 03:34 AM

On the blade of Cathey's latest baskethilt post: take a look at the blade of her S hilt brass basket on page 1 of this thread. Same blade. I have personally seen multiple examples of this blade type in the brass S hilts of the mid 1700s, and as I recall, Neumann shows one as well. That being said, my bet is that they are German imports of the 1700s.

--ElJay

Cathey · 11th July 2015, 05:59 AM

HI Guys, another British basket

BASKET-HILT c1745 British Dragoons
Overall Length: 117 cm, (46.1 inches)
Blade length: 101.5 cm, (40 inches) Back blade from hilt for 58cm
Blade widest point: 3.128 cm (1.2 inches)
Marks, etc: Remnants of etched pattern inlaid with gold on both sides. Scottish thistle and sun design still evident

Description
BASKET-HILT British Dragoon Guards Troopers Sword pattern 1745. Unusually Large Basket hilt with typical heart design and English style Bun Pommel. Wide central fuller full length of blade, slight remnants of etched pattern inlaid with gold on both sides. Scottish thistle and sun design still evident. Blade is 101.5 cm, back blade from hilt for 58cm.

Dragoons were originally intended to be used as mounted infantry. In the early 18th century, cavalry was divided into 2 categories - regts of horse and regts of dragoons. The regts of horse were used in the traditional role of heavy cavalry - i.e. shock action. Dragoons were used mainly for reconnaissance - and usually fought dismounted in battle.

References:
BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND pp 282
MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp97 Fig Fle & 125, Fig F17c
Scottish Sword & Shield Catalogue September 1994 Pp 6 No 8.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction Spring 1996 15/5/96 Lot 126.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction Spring 1998 7/10/99 Lot 82.
Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction 5/5/04 Lot 52
WILKINSON LATHAM, John, SWORDS IN COLOUR Plate 29.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 12th July 2015, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

On the blade of Cathey's latest baskethilt post: take a look at the blade of her S hilt brass basket on page 1 of this thread. Same blade. I have personally seen multiple examples of this blade type in the brass S hilts of the mid 1700s, and as I recall, Neumann shows one as well. That being said, my bet is that they are German imports of the 1700s.

--ElJay

so then my thought in #181 might be right?

Battara · 12th July 2015, 11:56 PM

Coming to the party late, I am thankful to you folks for this thread. I didn't know there was an Irish hilt! Now that I have some slight idea of that, I am confused on the Scottish. I know Cathy you mentioned that British and Scottish hilts are hard to distinguish, so would it then be in the pommel buns that would be the decider between Scottish and British styles?

BTW - I have always been interested in Scottish basket hilts, especially during the 18th century. One day when I grow up, I'll own one..........

Will M · 24th October 2018, 05:49 PM

By looking at pommels in this post it occurred to me that the pommel of my sword may show it's earlier than 1780's? The marking A57 on both guard and scabbard mouth would be A troop # 57. Should be more of these swords out there?

Jim McDougall · 24th October 2018, 11:51 PM

This is an interesting variant of the British 'four slot guard' which began around 1750s in the Birmingham horseman/dragoon swords it seems, The clipped tip blades on these were as previously discussed several years ago, a German favored blade feature.

The added guard bars to the hilt do not suggest earlier in my view, and it seems that the 1780s + date previously considered seems more likely.
The WYATT name stamped in the blade seems unusually configured and it does not seem to occur on other blades of this period. It does seem likely a cutlers mark and these of course may have been in a number of trades in business but assembled swords.

In past discussions it seems there was a Joseph Wyatt in England, but no record of his assembling swords.....and a Joseph Wyatt in Philadelphia, a silversmith I believe, working c. 1791-98. I think it is often difficult to consider that although post Revolution, people were still essentially British colonists, and goods from England were still supplied. As we know even into the Federal period swords were traded from England.

Components for swords were used by assemblers in a variety of combinations, and as pommels were often sundry items bought or traded in lots or from other sources, interchanged with other components.
This makes it difficult to estimate the date of a sword which is such an assembled sword, and this pommel is indeed atypical to the taller 'olive' types usually seen on these.

I agree with an earlier comment that unit or regimental numbers on hilts typically suggest British weapon. With the braided wire this sword seems to be intended for an officer, and officers swords were personal property, not issued..so a unit marked hilt seems unusual in this context.

So possibly earlier Solingen blade, British hilt, rewrapped grips, different pommel, assembled in America......Wyatt????
Forensically that would be my speculation at this point, if these components are indeed antique.
Always more research to go.

As for Victorian period reproductions for parlors and smoking rooms in baronial displays...….these regulation type swords and weapons were not among the favored selections.

21st June 2015, 04:57 AM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	British Basket Hilt Cavalry Backsword c1740-55 British Basket Hilt Cavalry Backsword c1740-55 Date: Circa 1740-1755 (18th Century) Overall Length: 101.5 cm (40 inches) Blade length: 85.6 cm (33.7 inches) Blade widest point: 3.296 cm (1.3 inches) Hilt widest point: Inside grip length: Marks, etc. Blade has mark on both sides and one deep fuller 61cm 24” long. There is a number painted on the hilt under the buff liner, probably an old museum reference, which appears to be 1831.over 2RS. Description Iron hilt consists of a bun pommel with a rather tall cylindrical tang-button, and a basket of more or less conventional Highland type, except that it lacks the addition of rear-guards, and the entire Saltire bars on the forward corner of each shield towards the pommel combine to form a rounded arch. The rear quillon does not project beyond the perimeter of the basket. The bars, which are of flattened rectangular section, are plain and unpierced. The grip is covered in black rayskin, wire binding is missing but brass Turks heads remain. There is a number painted on the hilt under the buff liner, probably an old museum reference, which appears to be 1831.over 2RS. Backsword blade with dark patina has mark on both sides and one deep fuller ¾ length. General Remarks Swords of this type were purchased by the colonels of British cavalry regiments, both horse and dragoons, for the use of their men. Comparable weapons are illustrated in the paintings of British heavy cavalry by David Morier, 1751 at Windsor Castle. References: Culloden The Swords and the Sorrows The National Trust for Scotland catalogue. Plate 1:51, pp 48. Mazansky – Cyrill British basket Hilted Swords Pp95, Fig Fla (C1750) Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

11th July 2015, 05:59 AM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	BASKET-HILT c1745 British Dragoons HI Guys, another British basket BASKET-HILT c1745 British Dragoons Overall Length: 117 cm, (46.1 inches) Blade length: 101.5 cm, (40 inches) Back blade from hilt for 58cm Blade widest point: 3.128 cm (1.2 inches) Marks, etc: Remnants of etched pattern inlaid with gold on both sides. Scottish thistle and sun design still evident Description BASKET-HILT British Dragoon Guards Troopers Sword pattern 1745. Unusually Large Basket hilt with typical heart design and English style Bun Pommel. Wide central fuller full length of blade, slight remnants of etched pattern inlaid with gold on both sides. Scottish thistle and sun design still evident. Blade is 101.5 cm, back blade from hilt for 58cm. Dragoons were originally intended to be used as mounted infantry. In the early 18th century, cavalry was divided into 2 categories - regts of horse and regts of dragoons. The regts of horse were used in the traditional role of heavy cavalry - i.e. shock action. Dragoons were used mainly for reconnaissance - and usually fought dismounted in battle. References: BEZDEK, Richard H. SWORDS AND SWORD MAKERS OF ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND pp 282 MAZANSKY (C.) British Basket-Hilted Swords: A Typology Of Basket-Type Sword Hilts. Pp97 Fig Fle & 125, Fig F17c Scottish Sword & Shield Catalogue September 1994 Pp 6 No 8. Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction Spring 1996 15/5/96 Lot 126. Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction Spring 1998 7/10/99 Lot 82. Wallis & Wallis Connoisseur Collectors Auction 5/5/04 Lot 52 WILKINSON LATHAM, John, SWORDS IN COLOUR Plate 29. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

24th October 2018, 05:49 PM	#9
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 394	By looking at pommels in this post it occurred to me that the pommel of my sword may show it's earlier than 1780's? The marking A57 on both guard and scabbard mouth would be A troop # 57. Should be more of these swords out there? Attached Images

8th June 2015, 05:35 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	BASKET HILT Broad Sword c1740, earlier blade Hi Guys This is actually one of the first Basket hilts I purchased back in 1996 in Adelaide. BASKET HILT Broad Sword Date: Hilt Circa 1740 (18th Century), Blade earlier Nationality: SCOTTISH Overall Length: 36 ½” 92.9 cm Blade length: 31 1/16” 79 cm Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.2 cm Hilt widest point: 5” 12.7 cm Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.8 cm Marks, etc.: 2 short fullers containing remnants of inscription, only the letters I O H A N T can be read with any certainty. Blade is pitted and has dark patina, possibly predates hilt. It has been suggested that the name on the blade is Johanus Cole, but with so few letters to go on I am unconvinced at this stage. Description BASKET HILT Scottish Broad Sword. The hilt guards are attached to a very prominent and board flat ring under the pommel, which is associated. The space between the rear and additional rear-guards has a very short transverse linking cross-bar, one third of the way up from the blade-end of the hilt. The margins of the plates and shields are scalloped to follow the outline of the piercing. These consist of large coarsely shaped hearts and circles, which give an open appearance to the shield and plates. This hilt has an oval ring on the inside of the hilt. The blade has 2 short fullers containing remnants of inscription, only the letters I O H A N T can be read with any certainty, followed by an anchor mark. Blade is pitted and has dark patina and a number of sharp contact cuts to its edge. I would suggest that the blade definitely predates the hilt. General Remarks The same hilt features on a sword in the National Museum of Scotland Edinburgh LA 140 References: CAMPBELL.A. Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden. pp 54-55 CURTIS, T The Lyle Official Arms and Armour Review 1976 Pp21 MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp126 F20. MOORE, W. Weapons of the American Revolution and Accoutrements. Pp 146, plate E33. OAKESHOTT, E. European Weapons and Armour. (See Claymore) pp 175-182. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

22nd June 2015, 05:24 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Hi Cathey, Sure am glad to see you back! as I would like to see this thread continue. These amazing swords are wonderful to see here as they offer so much opportunity to learn more on them. This latest addition of a mid 18th century dragoon sword is a great example, and with the mysterious oval aperture in the hilt which has been the subject of considerable debate. I am inclined to agree with A. Darling in its most probable purpose to hold reins while handling the pistol in the other hand . As always, I am drawn to the blades and markings, and this backsword has the inlaid brass (latten) anchor, but curiously situated almost off center near the fuller. As noted in the previous example (post #179) the anchor is seen situated at the terminus of fullers (very much in earlier Spanish styles adopted in Solingen in 17th century). Clearly that offers compelling suggestion the blade is from that century . In the case of this sword, I am wondering if perhaps this is a backsword blade from a 'mortuary' type sword of mid 17th c. and possibly from the Hounslow factory. It is of course pure speculation at this point, but these German smiths used markings of their Solingen counterparts and often inlaid in latten, most notably the 'running wolf'. Is it possible this blade could be of such provenance? Its curious position and placement seem to indicate such possibility, however it is known that German blades were brought in later at the turn of the century. Perhaps then this 'anchored' blade could be of that origin?

22nd June 2015, 11:55 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Please see http://www.oldswords.com/articles/Th...words-v1i4.pdf gfor a fine article on the weapon. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

25th June 2015, 03:34 AM	#5
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	On the blade of Cathey's latest baskethilt post: take a look at the blade of her S hilt brass basket on page 1 of this thread. Same blade. I have personally seen multiple examples of this blade type in the brass S hilts of the mid 1700s, and as I recall, Neumann shows one as well. That being said, my bet is that they are German imports of the 1700s. --ElJay

12th July 2015, 11:56 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Coming to the party late, I am thankful to you folks for this thread. I didn't know there was an Irish hilt! Now that I have some slight idea of that, I am confused on the Scottish. I know Cathy you mentioned that British and Scottish hilts are hard to distinguish, so would it then be in the pommel buns that would be the decider between Scottish and British styles? BTW - I have always been interested in Scottish basket hilts, especially during the 18th century. One day when I grow up, I'll own one..........

24th October 2018, 11:51 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	This is an interesting variant of the British 'four slot guard' which began around 1750s in the Birmingham horseman/dragoon swords it seems, The clipped tip blades on these were as previously discussed several years ago, a German favored blade feature. The added guard bars to the hilt do not suggest earlier in my view, and it seems that the 1780s + date previously considered seems more likely. The WYATT name stamped in the blade seems unusually configured and it does not seem to occur on other blades of this period. It does seem likely a cutlers mark and these of course may have been in a number of trades in business but assembled swords. In past discussions it seems there was a Joseph Wyatt in England, but no record of his assembling swords.....and a Joseph Wyatt in Philadelphia, a silversmith I believe, working c. 1791-98. I think it is often difficult to consider that although post Revolution, people were still essentially British colonists, and goods from England were still supplied. As we know even into the Federal period swords were traded from England. Components for swords were used by assemblers in a variety of combinations, and as pommels were often sundry items bought or traded in lots or from other sources, interchanged with other components. This makes it difficult to estimate the date of a sword which is such an assembled sword, and this pommel is indeed atypical to the taller 'olive' types usually seen on these. I agree with an earlier comment that unit or regimental numbers on hilts typically suggest British weapon. With the braided wire this sword seems to be intended for an officer, and officers swords were personal property, not issued..so a unit marked hilt seems unusual in this context. So possibly earlier Solingen blade, British hilt, rewrapped grips, different pommel, assembled in America......Wyatt???? Forensically that would be my speculation at this point, if these components are indeed antique. Always more research to go. As for Victorian period reproductions for parlors and smoking rooms in baronial displays...….these regulation type swords and weapons were not among the favored selections.