Go on...show us your Choora!!

ward · 7th June 2015, 12:54 AM

I think mahratt is correct to a point. You have not translated what else it says so have no context that this is a date. It could easily mean that it was the 1854 piece they made, maybe it was remembering his grandfather's death. It seems strange that it in western characters and dating while the rest is not. If it says this was made under the ruler whomever, or if it was collected by lord so and so at that date you would have a lot stronger case. As to the paper being added the afghans are notorious for mixing old and new items together. The piece might be that old but Ariel you are far from proving it. I think this debate is one of the more interesting ones I have read.

Ian · 7th June 2015, 05:17 PM

Mahratt and ariel:

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I would like to venture some observations based on ariel's pictures to date (acknowledging that they are incomplete and not very clear).

First, like Jens, I think the scabbards and wood show age and are consistent with items I have handled from the middle of the 19th C--and that observation is confirmed by ariel's historical consultant.

Second, the papers glued to the scabbards appear to have been there for a long time. They show defects adjacent to old deterioration of the leather covering the wooden scabbards. These defects in the leather show wear and rubbing, suggesting they are not recent, and the paper matches that damage well.

Third, I believe at least one of the inscriptions is a date because I think I can read "JANUARY 1 /, 1854." The first three letters of JAN seem clear and the rest of the month is indistinct. The following number (below the name of the month) could be a "1" or "3," then a slash, comma and 1854. All of this is in English and consistent with the Scottish auction provenance that ariel provided. As ariel's consultant has already determined, the handwriting is consistent with an early 19th C English style (possibly older), but we don't know the age of the person who wrote it. It seems reasonable to conclude, however, that the handwriting is consistent with having been written by an adult in the mid-19th C, and therefore consistent with the date on at least one of these choora scabbards.

Fourth, the remaining text on these papers is not written in English or a language that I recognize. What the language of this writing may be seems an important clue to the puzzle. Much of the inscriptions are faded or missing, which will make translation difficult even if we can find someone who can read it. There are photographic techniques and other methods used by professionals specializing in antique documents that will enhance faded writing, and these might be useful here. Perhaps forumites reading this thread will be able to suggest resources who could help with that.

Lastly, if I had been shown just these knives and their scabbards (without any attached documents), my estimated age would have been second half of the 19th C. That would have been my best guess. If they turn out to be older than that, then it would not surprise me very much. If they are actually of early 20th C manufacture, then I would be more surprised.

Let's hear what the professional experts have to say about the inscriptions and the likely age of these two knives.

Great topic!

Regards,

Ian.

ward · 7th June 2015, 06:20 PM

there is a evolution to weapons. I doubt that every one in 1901 said I must make a choora today. If you were preparing a research paper on this I would expect more than the opinion of one expert. I would like to see possible paintings and museum acquisitions checked. I am always a little leary about some museums claims. They do not always know what they are doing. I would probably also look for early examples of what the knife evolved from. I agree the experts field is slightly off from what is being studied and the ageing of the items may vary from books. However I can not think of a similar expert it could be brought to that could do better. Also what was said was that the scabbard was studied by the expert and their opinion given of it. I guess that you could take a sample of the horn taken and tested for age. I am not sure how accurate or expensive that would be. I think that mahratt would be better served if he showed documented pieces of why his dating is correct and show the widespread use of the knife that this replaced. I do not say that ariel is absolutely right, but using Occam's razor it leads to him being more correct.

mahratt · 7th June 2015, 07:37 PM

Dear participants of the forum.
Before talking about the possibility of chooras in the 19th century:
1) Can somebody of you give the image an Afghan (Waziri or someone else) with choor before 1900?
2) Does anyone of you knowledge of chooras in museum collections, which became a museum exhibit before 1900?

All other considerations, including the subjective opinions of experts - it is almost child's play "believe, do not believe," in which there is no serious evidence. For example. I ask an expert on the tree at the State Historical Museum in Moscow (Russia). I ask him, he can visually (without complex analyzes) to determine the age of a tree, exposed to the environment? He said that no one can do it for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Third, I believe at least one of the inscriptions is a date because I think I can read "JANUARY 1 /, 1854." The first three letters of JAN seem clear and the rest of the month is indistinct. The following number (below the name of the month) could be a "1" or "3," then a slash, comma and 1854. All of this is in English and consistent with the Scottish auction provenance that ariel provided. As ariel's consultant has already determined, the handwriting is consistent with an early 19th C English style (possibly older), but we don't know the age of the person who wrote it. It seems reasonable to conclude, however, that the handwriting is consistent with having been written by an adult in the mid-19th C, and therefore consistent with the date on at least one of these choora scabbards.

If you say so, it turns out that the number "1854" and an inscription in Farsi (or Pashtu) are written in various ink (After all, from your words it turns out that they were written by different people.)? Then it turns out the expert Ariel is not so good ... She did not tell him that there are different inks..(at least he did not mention about it in Russian forum).

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I know of no examples of very old Choora in British museums. I found catalogues of provincial amateur exhibitions of ~ 1870 introducing Waziri or just Afghani knives, but there were no pics. Their whereabouts are unknown to me. Perhaps, they are the very ones I am showing here:-)

Egerton shows a Choora in his book ( #624, Plate XIV) and gives Bannu as its origin: current Edwardsville, Pakhtunkhwa, The Pakistani part of the Khyber Pass) . Regretfully, Mahratt refuses to see a Choora in it :-)

When there is no picture of what to say, Ariel?

You and I already know the alleged "Afghan knife" of the printed catalog Jacob.

The subject, which is shown in Egerton - not Afghan choora (see image). I've said many times this Ariel

Moreover, the fact that certain items Egerton called "choora" not to say that this is the Afghan choora that we are discussing. In the 19th century the word "choora" refers to a knife (a "knife" in general and not any specific knife).

ariel · 7th June 2015, 07:20 PM

Ian, thank you!
As I have mentioned earlier, the text was attempted to be read by a native ( my postdoctoral fellow from Pakistan, who is fluent in Urdu and Pashto and his wife, who is a native Pashto) neither of them managed to get any useful clues. When these labels were examined in the Dept. Of Restoration, they were viewed under mighty magnification , and in different lights. This was also unproductive and the Curator of the Islamic Manuscript collection couldn't make any heads or tales either.
In short, this is a dead end. Drats! :-)

Ward,

Mahratt based his entire hypothesis on the fact that, having scoured the Internet, he was unable to find any photographs or drawings of Afghani natives carrying chooras. One could counter it by noting that very few British photographers, artists or journalists dared to venture to Waziristan and its "suburbs" in the 19 century:-) but I do trust Mahratt that his search was fruitless. He is very good in searching the Net.

I know of no examples of very old Choora in British museums. I found catalogues of provincial amateur exhibitions of ~ 1870 introducing Waziri or just Afghani knives, but there were no pics. Their whereabouts are unknown to me. Perhaps, they are the very ones I am showing here:-)

Egerton shows a Choora in his book ( #624, Plate XIV) and gives Bannu as its origin: current Edwardsville, Pakhtunkhwa, The Pakistani part of the Khyber Pass) . Regretfully, Mahratt refuses to see a Choora in it :-)

Radiocarbon analysis is unlikely to be productive: the items are not old enough and the spread will undoubtedly push the date somewhere between 17 and 20 centuries. Even worse, assuming that the analysis establishes the age as 19 century, one would be able to invoke a not unreasonable counter argument that the churras were made in , say, 1940, but the master used bits and pieces of wood, leather and horn that he inherited from his great-great-grandfather and that were stored in the darkest corner of his workshop:-)

ward · 7th June 2015, 08:09 PM

I am surprised that the English would not have any trophies from the 2nd afghan war {1878-1880} that would include chooras. I think that would be an easier date to research. As I have mentioned I do not disagree with you except with the written numbers being a date of collection or manufacture. You have done a lot of research and it is interesting. It might be worth your while to write out in a more precise paper the steps you have taken to show your premise of the dating. You have already done the work so why not. People will always disagree some using rational explanations some not. ethnic weapons are hard to date and rough estimates are mostly used, especially in this particular part of the world where the same exact motifs,materials and workmanship may still be in use.

ward · 7th June 2015, 08:27 PM

Mahratt this statement is not realistic.

All other considerations, including the subjective opinions of experts - it is almost child's play "believe, do not believe," in which there is no serious evidence. For example. I ask an expert on the tree at the State Historical Museum in Moscow (Russia). I ask him, he can visually (without complex analyzes) to determine the age of a tree, exposed to the environment? He said that no one can do it for sure.

I started college as a archeology major and dating wood is reasonably precise. You take a section of wood from that area and look at the size of the rings and the count. you cross reference this. No he probably can't just look at the tree and tell you its age.

mahratt · 7th June 2015, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I started college as a archeology major and dating wood is reasonably precise. You take a section of wood from that area and look at the size of the rings and the count. you cross reference this. No he probably can't just look at the tree and tell you its age.

I apologize for my bad English. I mean, not a tree out of the forest, where you can watch the annual rings. I'm talking about the tree on the scabbard (which is exposed to the environment: wind, water, sun, and so on).

Expert (of which I spoke) works in the museum with old objects made of wood)

ward · 7th June 2015, 08:48 PM

Technically as long as you have a section with the rings on it you could, but you would have to destroy the piece. I am sure that better methods have been advanced in 30 some years. Yes I know the next argument was that the wood could have been cut at that time and used later.

Jim McDougall · 7th June 2015, 09:04 PM

I must say I very much admire the empirical approach taken by Ariel toward the analysis of these examples and their associated labels. However, I am not sure that findings pertaining to these labels would add to supporting the proper dating of them. As has been noted, these might refer to any number of notations or data. With the materials, again, these would not necessarily pertain ...it must be remembered, ethnographic weapons were constantly refurbished and recycled, and tags or labels may have been adjoined to the item at any point in its holding.

Then there is the red herring matter of the 'choora' itself, which lends more to a 'name game' which plagues identifying ethnographic forms. It would seem that we can establish the 'term' choora from at least the mid to third quarter 19th century as both Burton and Egerton use it loosely. When trying to link it directly to a distinct form, it remains unclear and even Egerton (pl.XIV, 624) is identified as 'pesh kabz', yet has rudimentary appearance of a 'choora' in our parlance.

In reviewing Torben Flindt's excellent work on Bukharen arms (1979) he notes this narrow straight back, T blade with radius to sharp point blade as a 'karud' (p.23). He never uses the term 'choora' in his work.

Here we enter the slippery slope of terminology with pesh kabz (typically recurved sharp point); karud (a heavier blade and hilt, rather a smaller 'Khyber' knife..but with the narrower blade also in degree per Flindt); and the 'choora' (which term is notably absent from Flindt).
Mr. Flindt also notes that neither he nor Elgood could derive the origin of the term karud, but presumed perhaps from the Persian 'kard', yet another form in this group.

It would seem to me that these various forms evolved rather concurrently in these Central Asian regions, and most likely in very similar styles from as early as latter 18th century of course through 19th. Tribal arms are of course typically not dated, nor recorded as far as form, so chronological evolution of a particular form is extremely unlikely without categoric provenance. Also is the matter of regional and often tribal preference, which means that the variations we find in these weapons is more often probably lent to those factors than to any developmental character.

In my opinion, there is really no 'debate' here, rather some very well observed discourse which offers an excellent overview of these variations of the spectrum of Central Asian daggers used from easily 19th century into the 20th.
As far as dating each item, it is more to its own merits and comparable motif and decoration than to an overall form and specific term.

I think it would be interesting to look further into the presence of the cleft in the pommel of Khyber knives (seylaawa) of the 'sword' size, their smaller counterparts 'karud' and apparently some of these 'choora' (pesh kabz).
It would seem this may derive at least partly or perhaps wholly from the distinctive Bukharen sabres (Flindt .p.23) which developed independently from the shashka form in the Caucusus though the cleft is compellingly similar. The influences of Persian arms of course notably present here, thus filtering into Afghan (N. India) regions.
I notice that the cleft is absent in some of these 'choora' etc. and perhaps we might look more to that feature in determining any consistancies.

7th June 2015, 09:04 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	I must say I very much admire the empirical approach taken by Ariel toward the analysis of these examples and their associated labels. However, I am not sure that findings pertaining to these labels would add to supporting the proper dating of them. As has been noted, these might refer to any number of notations or data. With the materials, again, these would not necessarily pertain ...it must be remembered, ethnographic weapons were constantly refurbished and recycled, and tags or labels may have been adjoined to the item at any point in its holding. Then there is the red herring matter of the 'choora' itself, which lends more to a 'name game' which plagues identifying ethnographic forms. It would seem that we can establish the 'term' choora from at least the mid to third quarter 19th century as both Burton and Egerton use it loosely. When trying to link it directly to a distinct form, it remains unclear and even Egerton (pl.XIV, 624) is identified as 'pesh kabz', yet has rudimentary appearance of a 'choora' in our parlance. In reviewing Torben Flindt's excellent work on Bukharen arms (1979) he notes this narrow straight back, T blade with radius to sharp point blade as a 'karud' (p.23). He never uses the term 'choora' in his work. Here we enter the slippery slope of terminology with pesh kabz (typically recurved sharp point); karud (a heavier blade and hilt, rather a smaller 'Khyber' knife..but with the narrower blade also in degree per Flindt); and the 'choora' (which term is notably absent from Flindt). Mr. Flindt also notes that neither he nor Elgood could derive the origin of the term karud, but presumed perhaps from the Persian 'kard', yet another form in this group. It would seem to me that these various forms evolved rather concurrently in these Central Asian regions, and most likely in very similar styles from as early as latter 18th century of course through 19th. Tribal arms are of course typically not dated, nor recorded as far as form, so chronological evolution of a particular form is extremely unlikely without categoric provenance. Also is the matter of regional and often tribal preference, which means that the variations we find in these weapons is more often probably lent to those factors than to any developmental character. In my opinion, there is really no 'debate' here, rather some very well observed discourse which offers an excellent overview of these variations of the spectrum of Central Asian daggers used from easily 19th century into the 20th. As far as dating each item, it is more to its own merits and comparable motif and decoration than to an overall form and specific term. I think it would be interesting to look further into the presence of the cleft in the pommel of Khyber knives (seylaawa) of the 'sword' size, their smaller counterparts 'karud' and apparently some of these 'choora' (pesh kabz). It would seem this may derive at least partly or perhaps wholly from the distinctive Bukharen sabres (Flindt .p.23) which developed independently from the shashka form in the Caucusus though the cleft is compellingly similar. The influences of Persian arms of course notably present here, thus filtering into Afghan (N. India) regions. I notice that the cleft is absent in some of these 'choora' etc. and perhaps we might look more to that feature in determining any consistancies. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 7th June 2015 at 09:14 PM.

7th June 2015, 12:54 AM	#1
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I think mahratt is correct to a point. You have not translated what else it says so have no context that this is a date. It could easily mean that it was the 1854 piece they made, maybe it was remembering his grandfather's death. It seems strange that it in western characters and dating while the rest is not. If it says this was made under the ruler whomever, or if it was collected by lord so and so at that date you would have a lot stronger case. As to the paper being added the afghans are notorious for mixing old and new items together. The piece might be that old but Ariel you are far from proving it. I think this debate is one of the more interesting ones I have read.

7th June 2015, 05:17 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,470	Mahratt and ariel: I don't have a dog in this fight, but I would like to venture some observations based on ariel's pictures to date (acknowledging that they are incomplete and not very clear). First, like Jens, I think the scabbards and wood show age and are consistent with items I have handled from the middle of the 19th C--and that observation is confirmed by ariel's historical consultant. Second, the papers glued to the scabbards appear to have been there for a long time. They show defects adjacent to old deterioration of the leather covering the wooden scabbards. These defects in the leather show wear and rubbing, suggesting they are not recent, and the paper matches that damage well. Third, I believe at least one of the inscriptions is a date because I think I can read "JANUARY 1 /, 1854." The first three letters of JAN seem clear and the rest of the month is indistinct. The following number (below the name of the month) could be a "1" or "3," then a slash, comma and 1854. All of this is in English and consistent with the Scottish auction provenance that ariel provided. As ariel's consultant has already determined, the handwriting is consistent with an early 19th C English style (possibly older), but we don't know the age of the person who wrote it. It seems reasonable to conclude, however, that the handwriting is consistent with having been written by an adult in the mid-19th C, and therefore consistent with the date on at least one of these choora scabbards. Fourth, the remaining text on these papers is not written in English or a language that I recognize. What the language of this writing may be seems an important clue to the puzzle. Much of the inscriptions are faded or missing, which will make translation difficult even if we can find someone who can read it. There are photographic techniques and other methods used by professionals specializing in antique documents that will enhance faded writing, and these might be useful here. Perhaps forumites reading this thread will be able to suggest resources who could help with that. Lastly, if I had been shown just these knives and their scabbards (without any attached documents), my estimated age would have been second half of the 19th C. That would have been my best guess. If they turn out to be older than that, then it would not surprise me very much. If they are actually of early 20th C manufacture, then I would be more surprised. Let's hear what the professional experts have to say about the inscriptions and the likely age of these two knives. Great topic! Regards, Ian.

7th June 2015, 06:20 PM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	there is a evolution to weapons. I doubt that every one in 1901 said I must make a choora today. If you were preparing a research paper on this I would expect more than the opinion of one expert. I would like to see possible paintings and museum acquisitions checked. I am always a little leary about some museums claims. They do not always know what they are doing. I would probably also look for early examples of what the knife evolved from. I agree the experts field is slightly off from what is being studied and the ageing of the items may vary from books. However I can not think of a similar expert it could be brought to that could do better. Also what was said was that the scabbard was studied by the expert and their opinion given of it. I guess that you could take a sample of the horn taken and tested for age. I am not sure how accurate or expensive that would be. I think that mahratt would be better served if he showed documented pieces of why his dating is correct and show the widespread use of the knife that this replaced. I do not say that ariel is absolutely right, but using Occam's razor it leads to him being more correct.

7th June 2015, 07:20 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ian, thank you! As I have mentioned earlier, the text was attempted to be read by a native ( my postdoctoral fellow from Pakistan, who is fluent in Urdu and Pashto and his wife, who is a native Pashto) neither of them managed to get any useful clues. When these labels were examined in the Dept. Of Restoration, they were viewed under mighty magnification , and in different lights. This was also unproductive and the Curator of the Islamic Manuscript collection couldn't make any heads or tales either. In short, this is a dead end. Drats! :-) Ward, Mahratt based his entire hypothesis on the fact that, having scoured the Internet, he was unable to find any photographs or drawings of Afghani natives carrying chooras. One could counter it by noting that very few British photographers, artists or journalists dared to venture to Waziristan and its "suburbs" in the 19 century:-) but I do trust Mahratt that his search was fruitless. He is very good in searching the Net. I know of no examples of very old Choora in British museums. I found catalogues of provincial amateur exhibitions of ~ 1870 introducing Waziri or just Afghani knives, but there were no pics. Their whereabouts are unknown to me. Perhaps, they are the very ones I am showing here:-) Egerton shows a Choora in his book ( #624, Plate XIV) and gives Bannu as its origin: current Edwardsville, Pakhtunkhwa, The Pakistani part of the Khyber Pass) . Regretfully, Mahratt refuses to see a Choora in it :-) Radiocarbon analysis is unlikely to be productive: the items are not old enough and the spread will undoubtedly push the date somewhere between 17 and 20 centuries. Even worse, assuming that the analysis establishes the age as 19 century, one would be able to invoke a not unreasonable counter argument that the churras were made in , say, 1940, but the master used bits and pieces of wood, leather and horn that he inherited from his great-great-grandfather and that were stored in the darkest corner of his workshop:-)

7th June 2015, 08:09 PM	#6
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I am surprised that the English would not have any trophies from the 2nd afghan war {1878-1880} that would include chooras. I think that would be an easier date to research. As I have mentioned I do not disagree with you except with the written numbers being a date of collection or manufacture. You have done a lot of research and it is interesting. It might be worth your while to write out in a more precise paper the steps you have taken to show your premise of the dating. You have already done the work so why not. People will always disagree some using rational explanations some not. ethnic weapons are hard to date and rough estimates are mostly used, especially in this particular part of the world where the same exact motifs,materials and workmanship may still be in use.

7th June 2015, 08:27 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Mahratt this statement is not realistic. All other considerations, including the subjective opinions of experts - it is almost child's play "believe, do not believe," in which there is no serious evidence. For example. I ask an expert on the tree at the State Historical Museum in Moscow (Russia). I ask him, he can visually (without complex analyzes) to determine the age of a tree, exposed to the environment? He said that no one can do it for sure. I started college as a archeology major and dating wood is reasonably precise. You take a section of wood from that area and look at the size of the rings and the count. you cross reference this. No he probably can't just look at the tree and tell you its age.

7th June 2015, 08:48 PM	#9
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Technically as long as you have a section with the rings on it you could, but you would have to destroy the piece. I am sure that better methods have been advanced in 30 some years. Yes I know the next argument was that the wood could have been cut at that time and used later.