Basket hilted swords

[cornelistromp]

Description
Basket Hilt-Scottish-c1730-Broad Sword: - Thick steel basket Hilt has typical heart and circle decoration made of thick flat bars, no wrist guard. Blade length is pitted and has dark patina, numerous marks visible on blade shoulder and both fullers, probably German. The fuller runs almost the entire length of the blade. The blade may predate the hilt however they appear to have been together for very long time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex[/QUOTE]

@ Cathey,
the blade seems indeed older, 150-200 year, out of the first half of the 16th century and maybe shortened.
this type of mark I noticed more often at the ricasso of a so-called compound or complex hilt from the first half of the 16th century.
Always on the left side of the ricasso (pommel up) of a double fullered
blade.

best,

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey, thank you so much for the source for those titles, Trotman is an excellent seller.
Jasper, nice catch on that blade!

Best regards,
Jim

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Description
Basket Hilt-Scottish-c1730-Broad Sword: - Thick steel basket Hilt has typical heart and circle decoration made of thick flat bars, no wrist guard. Blade length is pitted and has dark patina, numerous marks visible on blade shoulder and both fullers, probably German. The fuller runs almost the entire length of the blade. The blade may predate the hilt however they appear to have been together for very long time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

@ Cathey,
the blade seems indeed older, 150-200 year, out of the first half of the 16th century and maybe shortened.
this type of mark I noticed more often at the ricasso of a so-called compound or complex hilt from the first half of the 16th century.
Always on the left side of the ricasso (pommel up) of a double fullered
blade.

best,[/QUOTE]
Hi Jasper and Cathy,
the marks on the blade look like they are from the same maker, and yes the blade is from the first half of the 16th century , from south German Or North Italian origin.
The blade in the basket hilt is a similar blade and looks shortened.
Or it could be a blade from the same maker forged in different dimensions to begin with.
The blade of the complex hilt measures 4,5 CM at the cross guard and is 106,5 CM long.
I cant measure the blade on the basket hilt but I think 3,5 would be close.
Also the fullers on the one and a half sword are 7 mm wide.

@ Jasper , you'r first picture is from that Italian book, but were did you find the picture of the second sword ?
kind regards

Ulfberth

[cornelistromp]

@Dirk,

http://www.baldwin.co.uk/media/cms/a...0Militaria.pdf

lot 184 pp80

best,
Jasper

[Cathey]

Hi Jasper and Ulfberth

Thanks for the example of what does appear to be the same mark on the ricasso, pity we cannot establish who the mark belonged to. I am still trying to decide what the marks lower down on the blade itself might be. The middle one looks almost like a scimitar sword, however I think the longer I stare at it the less I know what is.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Jasper and Ulfberth

Thanks for the example of what does appear to be the same mark on the ricasso, pity we cannot establish who the mark belonged to. I am still trying to decide what the marks lower down on the blade itself might be. The middle one looks almost like a scimitar sword, however I think the longer I stare at it the less I know what is.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hi Cathey,

Of the marks on the ricasso the one in the mid looks exactly the same,
the one above and below are different or put on from a different angle, horizontal vs upright.

Of the marks on the half of the blade the one in de mid looks like yours, however I can not identify for sure the mark on your blade.
What I am sure of is that the blade in the basket hilt is not shortened, because it is also 1,2 CM more narrow at the ricasso.
I believe that blade was made at this dimensions from the beginning and these dimensions are correct for a basket hilt :
Blade length: 87 cm
Blade widest point: 3.3 cm

One and a half hand sword
Blade length: 106 cm
Blade widest point: 4.5 cm

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

This is actually one of the first Basket hilts I purchased back in 1996 in Adelaide.

BASKET HILT Broad Sword
Date: Hilt Circa 1740 (18th Century), Blade earlier
Nationality: SCOTTISH
Overall Length: 36 ½” 92.9 cm
Blade length: 31 1/16” 79 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.2 cm
Hilt widest point: 5” 12.7 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.8 cm
Marks, etc.: 2 short fullers containing remnants of inscription, only the letters I O H A N T can be read with any certainty. Blade is pitted and has dark patina, possibly predates hilt.

It has been suggested that the name on the blade is Johanus Cole, but with so few letters to go on I am unconvinced at this stage.

Description
BASKET HILT Scottish Broad Sword. The hilt guards are attached to a very prominent and board flat ring under the pommel, which is associated. The space between the rear and additional rear-guards has a very short transverse linking cross-bar, one third of the way up from the blade-end of the hilt. The margins of the plates and shields are scalloped to follow the outline of the piercing. These consist of large coarsely shaped hearts and circles, which give an open appearance to the shield and plates. This hilt has an oval ring on the inside of the hilt. The blade has 2 short fullers containing remnants of inscription, only the letters I O H A N T can be read with any certainty, followed by an anchor mark. Blade is pitted and has dark patina and a number of sharp contact cuts to its edge. I would suggest that the blade definitely predates the hilt.

General Remarks
The same hilt features on a sword in the National Museum of Scotland Edinburgh LA 140

References:
CAMPBELL.A. Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden. pp 54-55
CURTIS, T The Lyle Official Arms and Armour Review 1976 Pp21
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp126 F20.
MOORE, W. Weapons of the American Revolution and Accoutrements. Pp 146, plate E33.
OAKESHOTT, E. European Weapons and Armour. (See Claymore) pp 175-182.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Cathey]

British Basket Hilt Cavalry Backsword c1740-55

Date: Circa 1740-1755 (18th Century)
Overall Length: 101.5 cm (40 inches)
Blade length: 85.6 cm (33.7 inches)
Blade widest point: 3.296 cm (1.3 inches)
Hilt widest point:
Inside grip length:
Marks, etc. Blade has mark on both sides and one deep fuller 61cm 24” long. There is a number painted on the hilt under the buff liner, probably an old museum reference, which appears to be 1831.over 2RS.

Description
Iron hilt consists of a bun pommel with a rather tall cylindrical tang-button, and a basket of more or less conventional Highland type, except that it lacks the addition of rear-guards, and the entire Saltire bars on the forward corner of each shield towards the pommel combine to form a rounded arch. The rear quillon does not project beyond the perimeter of the basket. The bars, which are of flattened rectangular section, are plain and unpierced. The grip is covered in black rayskin, wire binding is missing but brass Turks heads remain. There is a number painted on the hilt under the buff liner, probably an old museum reference, which appears to be 1831.over 2RS. Backsword blade with dark patina has mark on both sides and one deep fuller ¾ length.

General Remarks
Swords of this type were purchased by the colonels of British cavalry regiments, both horse and dragoons, for the use of their men. Comparable weapons are illustrated in the paintings of British heavy cavalry by David Morier, 1751 at Windsor Castle.

References:
Culloden The Swords and the Sorrows The National Trust for Scotland catalogue. Plate 1:51, pp 48.
Mazansky – Cyrill British basket Hilted Swords Pp95, Fig Fla (C1750)

Cheers Cathey and Rex