Basket hilted swords

Cathey · 16th May 2015, 07:44 AM

Hi Guys

Just working through what I have and haven’t posted and realised I had not put my favourite up yet, so here goes.

Scottish Basket Hilt by Thomas Gemmill
Date: Circa 1690-1720 (17-18th Century)
Nationality: Scottish (Glasgow)
Overall Length: 93.5 cm (36.8 inches)
Blade length: 79.7 cm (31.4 inches)
Blade widest point: 4.4 cm (1.7 inches)
Marks, etc: Blade marked "Andria Farara" in the centre.

Description
The Iron hilt has a broad flared wrist guard with fluted decoration. The edges of all the broad and narrow guards are cut with pairs of claws with bifurcated ends. The piercing includes hearts made up of three separate holes, a diamond one shaped to fit between the other two which are round. The central piercing on the broad guards is in the form of an X. The grip is stag horn. All other bars are broad and have deep fluted decoration. This is a full basket. The broad sword blade is marked “"Andria Farara" on both sides.

General Remarks
Provenance: sold by Philip Fialides of Impala Antiques to retired Victorian Superintendent of Police Noel Standfield, Noel then sold the sword on to Murray Gray. Noel had done considerable research on this sword and was the first to claim it is an unsigned Gemmill.

Sword has since been confirmed as an unsigned Thomas Gemmill by the Baron of Earlshall who will be featuring this sword in his book.

Thomas Gemmill (Kings Armourer in Glasgow, c. 1718-1737)

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th May 2015, 05:40 PM

Salaams all...In support of the above post please see https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1899820795

Simply go to the page and select the required Illustration which is also loaded with script details...on page 13 ...Scottish Broadsword with Highland Dirk puts the reader in the middle of Swordmaker style, detail, makers names etc etc...Including some Andrea Ferara details.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Cathey · 21st May 2015, 05:27 AM

Hi Guys

Just looking back at what I have and haven’t posted on this thread already and realised I missed the third of my Spiracle Pommel Swords, so here it is.

Basket Hilted Back Sword (Irish Hilt)
Date: Circa 1615-40
Nationality: British
Overall Length: 108.6 cm 42 ¾”
Blade length: 95.1 cm 37 5/8”
Blade widest point: 2.8 cm 1 1/8”
Hilt widest point: 11.3 cm 4 2/4”
Inside grip length: 8.5 cm 3 3/8”
Marks, etc.: Blade marked to both sides to a German, Solingen Swordsmith, “CLEMENS DINGER”.

With regards to marks, I flipped the picture of the two makes under the hilt upside down and what I first thought looked like some kind of snake now looks more like two swans. Sometimes I think the more you look at sword marks the more confusing they get.

Description
English Basket Hilt circa 1615-40
English basket hilt sword (Irish Hilt) of early form, approx. Staghorn grip (latter replacement), steel guard of early type with the feature of a loop in the nut that attaches the guard to the Spherical pommel. The backsword blade is attributed to Clemens Dingen (II) recorded as working 1630-1710 and marked with CLEMENS DINGER and the Orb and cross on both sides.

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp67
MOWBRAY, Stuart C BRITISH MILITARY SWORDS VOLUME ONE 1600-1660 The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army pp122
OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution pp176-178

Cheers Cathey and Rex

cornelistromp · 21st May 2015, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

The backsword blade is attributed to Clemens Dingen (II) recorded as working 1630-1710 and marked with CLEMENS DINGER and the Orb and cross on both sides.

WOW, he worked 80 years !

there is a famous Swedish sword known which can be dated to 1627 with a similar standing swan of Clemens Dinger.
I will check it later today.

best,

cornelistromp · 22nd May 2015, 09:08 AM

swan mark and "signature Clemens Deinger" on rapier of Gustav II. Adolf from Sweden carried at battle of Dirschau Poland in 1627.

Clemens Dinger worked for from <1627 to the 1650s, the swan mark (different) was also used by his son Heinrich and used by his grandson Wilhem in 1698 onwards.

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2015, 03:31 AM

Definitely a very nice blade! Apparently Clemens Dinger (the elder) worked in Solingen 1590-1620 and then listed (according to Bezdek p134) in Toledo from 1620-1677. There is another listed among the numerous members of this family as Clemens Dinger zu Wirsberg 1640-45 (not sure what the 'zu' means).
Whatever the case this blade of course probably aligns with earlier blades by the elder as the 1627 date was set as noted by the battle in Poland that year.

I am curious, in the name stamp, why are the 'N's backward (as in the Cyrillic letter 'I') ? Is this some sort of artistic license or deliberately set trademark? In many cases other letters as in Spanish names, inscriptions have uncharacteristic 'E's and other substitutions in various cases.

The swan stamp apparently survived in non 'Dinger' blades well through the 18th century as found in smallswords among other town marks and hallmarks (Dean, 1929). As always curious on other use of the swan markings.

Cathey · 23rd May 2015, 06:27 AM

Upon cornelistromp advice I purchased copies of Solinger Schwertschmiede Des 16. Und 17. Jahrhundersts Und Ihre Erxeugenisse by ALber Weyersberg and Stephan Kinsman’s European Makers or Edges Weapons, the Marks a Handbook for Museums and Collections. These books arrived the other day and I have found both publications quite useful.

Given the earlier period dating for the sword in question I would attribute the time line to Clemens Dinger worked for from 1627 to the 1650s.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

cornelistromp · 25th May 2015, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Definitely a very nice blade! Apparently Clemens Dinger (the elder) worked in Solingen 1590-1620 and then listed (according to Bezdek p134) in Toledo from 1620-1677.

if he started working as a sword smith in Solingen at around the age of 20, then he stopped in Toledo at the age of 107! ???
This is obviously not the case.
if you could survive childhood and your teenage years you had a good chance of living to your 50s or your early 60s.

I think there are two Clemens mixed together here.

re Toldedo:
Wendelin Boeheim refers to one Spanish? dated blade of Clemente dinger,
CLEMETE DINGER ESPERADO MI SIGNAL PARAIO 1677,
but questioned whether there really has worked a Dinger in Toledo.
It was fashion to put in Solingen Spanish phrases and Toledo look a like marks in the blades.

I expect the career of clemens Dinger as suggested by Boeheim, before 1627 to mid 50s to be very likely.

best
jasper

16th May 2015, 07:44 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Scottish Basket Hilt by Thomas Gemmill Hi Guys Just working through what I have and haven’t posted and realised I had not put my favourite up yet, so here goes. Scottish Basket Hilt by Thomas Gemmill Date: Circa 1690-1720 (17-18th Century) Nationality: Scottish (Glasgow) Overall Length: 93.5 cm (36.8 inches) Blade length: 79.7 cm (31.4 inches) Blade widest point: 4.4 cm (1.7 inches) Marks, etc: Blade marked "Andria Farara" in the centre. Description The Iron hilt has a broad flared wrist guard with fluted decoration. The edges of all the broad and narrow guards are cut with pairs of claws with bifurcated ends. The piercing includes hearts made up of three separate holes, a diamond one shaped to fit between the other two which are round. The central piercing on the broad guards is in the form of an X. The grip is stag horn. All other bars are broad and have deep fluted decoration. This is a full basket. The broad sword blade is marked “"Andria Farara" on both sides. General Remarks Provenance: sold by Philip Fialides of Impala Antiques to retired Victorian Superintendent of Police Noel Standfield, Noel then sold the sword on to Murray Gray. Noel had done considerable research on this sword and was the first to claim it is an unsigned Gemmill. Sword has since been confirmed as an unsigned Thomas Gemmill by the Baron of Earlshall who will be featuring this sword in his book. Thomas Gemmill (Kings Armourer in Glasgow, c. 1718-1737) Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

16th May 2015, 05:40 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all...In support of the above post please see https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1899820795 Simply go to the page and select the required Illustration which is also loaded with script details...on page 13 ...Scottish Broadsword with Highland Dirk puts the reader in the middle of Swordmaker style, detail, makers names etc etc...Including some Andrea Ferara details. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 16th May 2015 at 06:00 PM.

21st May 2015, 05:27 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Basket Hilted Back Sword (Irish Hilt) Hi Guys Just looking back at what I have and haven’t posted on this thread already and realised I missed the third of my Spiracle Pommel Swords, so here it is. Basket Hilted Back Sword (Irish Hilt) Date: Circa 1615-40 Nationality: British Overall Length: 108.6 cm 42 ¾” Blade length: 95.1 cm 37 5/8” Blade widest point: 2.8 cm 1 1/8” Hilt widest point: 11.3 cm 4 2/4” Inside grip length: 8.5 cm 3 3/8” Marks, etc.: Blade marked to both sides to a German, Solingen Swordsmith, “CLEMENS DINGER”. With regards to marks, I flipped the picture of the two makes under the hilt upside down and what I first thought looked like some kind of snake now looks more like two swans. Sometimes I think the more you look at sword marks the more confusing they get. Description English Basket Hilt circa 1615-40 English basket hilt sword (Irish Hilt) of early form, approx. Staghorn grip (latter replacement), steel guard of early type with the feature of a loop in the nut that attaches the guard to the Spherical pommel. The backsword blade is attributed to Clemens Dingen (II) recorded as working 1630-1710 and marked with CLEMENS DINGER and the Orb and cross on both sides. References: MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp67 MOWBRAY, Stuart C BRITISH MILITARY SWORDS VOLUME ONE 1600-1660 The English Civil Wars and the Birth of the British Standing Army pp122 OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR From the Renaissance to the Industrial Revolution pp176-178 Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

22nd May 2015, 09:08 AM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	swan mark and "signature Clemens Deinger" on rapier of Gustav II. Adolf from Sweden carried at battle of Dirschau Poland in 1627. Clemens Dinger worked for from <1627 to the 1650s, the swan mark (different) was also used by his son Heinrich and used by his grandson Wilhem in 1698 onwards. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 22nd May 2015 at 11:54 AM.

23rd May 2015, 06:27 AM	#7
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Clemens Dinger Upon cornelistromp advice I purchased copies of Solinger Schwertschmiede Des 16. Und 17. Jahrhundersts Und Ihre Erxeugenisse by ALber Weyersberg and Stephan Kinsman’s European Makers or Edges Weapons, the Marks a Handbook for Museums and Collections. These books arrived the other day and I have found both publications quite useful. Given the earlier period dating for the sword in question I would attribute the time line to Clemens Dinger worked for from 1627 to the 1650s. Cheers Cathey and Rex

23rd May 2015, 03:31 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Definitely a very nice blade! Apparently Clemens Dinger (the elder) worked in Solingen 1590-1620 and then listed (according to Bezdek p134) in Toledo from 1620-1677. There is another listed among the numerous members of this family as Clemens Dinger zu Wirsberg 1640-45 (not sure what the 'zu' means). Whatever the case this blade of course probably aligns with earlier blades by the elder as the 1627 date was set as noted by the battle in Poland that year. I am curious, in the name stamp, why are the 'N's backward (as in the Cyrillic letter 'I') ? Is this some sort of artistic license or deliberately set trademark? In many cases other letters as in Spanish names, inscriptions have uncharacteristic 'E's and other substitutions in various cases. The swan stamp apparently survived in non 'Dinger' blades well through the 18th century as found in smallswords among other town marks and hallmarks (Dean, 1929). As always curious on other use of the swan markings.