Tomas De Aiala sword blade.

Fernando K · 14th May 2015, 02:30 PM

Hola Me ha llamado la atencion el motto . No deberia ser

MI SEÑAL ES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFIJO

Afectosamente. Fernando K

(El traductor no permite, o no se, ponerlo como corresponde, en ingles)

fernando · 14th May 2015, 03:27 PM

Espaderos were not so good in writing as in forging blades, Fernando

.
The only letter of the motto i was not sure of, was the H, as this part of my blade was rather worn.
But i happened to locate the mentioning of a shell guard sword (item #234) in the Portuguese/Spanish exhibition of 1882 in Lisbon, with the same motto and precisely the same words ... and with the H included. Also the Christ crucified symbols were present in the ricasso. Such sword belonged to D. Jaquim Garcia Toledo from Lisbon.

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2015, 08:54 PM

Just found it I think Norman,
In Boccia & Coelho (#726) there is an Italian smallsword (c 1680-90) with virtually this exact type blade, and the quad dots next to the 'eye' with dot, fuller etc.
In this case the 'Tomas' is on obverse side of bade while 'Aiala' other.
In this case this tang would insert directly into hilt as seen here, and there would be no 'stem' type ricasso as with rapiers.
I'll try to get a pic, but always a challenge with my antiquated tools (and me

In Wallace (1962) it is noted that in many cases Italy used the Tomas Aiala name, just as did Solingen. In this case this could well be a Solingen blade in Italy, or other way around but used on smallsword rather than rapier.

Norman McCormick · 15th May 2015, 07:06 PM

Hi Fernando and Jim,
Many thanks for your continued interest and elucidation. I'm still trying to tie down a more specific date and style for this blade but from your replies and what I've found myself the range of possibilities are pretty wide, the search goes on.

Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Jim, is the blade you refer to etched or stamped/engraved?

Jim McDougall · 15th May 2015, 07:23 PM

It is stamped and seems in accord with Solingen work, the date range seems reliable as Boccia & Coelho seems to be such a work . The attribution of the smallsword in to Florence, but it is more a provenance note . As Wallace Coll (Mann,1962) notes from during the lifetime of Tomas Aiala, his name had become rather a trademark for quality and it seems there were blades c1620 from Milan using it. Therefore this could equally, and even probably, be a Milan issue. It seems these 'eye' marks were not apparent in Solingen blades I can recall.

Jim

P.S. Jim, is the blade you refer to etched or stamped/engraved?[/QUOTE]

cornelistromp · 17th May 2015, 12:14 PM

Hi Norman,

as per your Email request, herewith my opinion;

I think it's a rapier blade (given the broad ricasso of same width indeed an early rapier blade and not a small sword blade) from the last quarter of the 16th century perhaps very early 17thC, given the eye mark, probably Italy.

Hope it helps.

best,
jasper

Norman McCormick · 17th May 2015, 06:42 PM

Hi Jim and Jasper,
Many thanks for your thoughts and input, much appreciated.
My Regards,
Norman.

cornelistromp · 22nd May 2015, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just found it I think Norman,
In Boccia & Coelho (#726) there is an Italian smallsword (c 1680-90) with virtually this exact type blade, and the quad dots next to the 'eye' with dot, fuller etc.
In this case the 'Tomas' is on obverse side of bade while 'Aiala' other.
In this case this tang would insert directly into hilt as seen here, and there would be no 'stem' type ricasso as with rapiers.
I'll try to get a pic, but always a challenge with my antiquated tools (and me

In Wallace (1962) it is noted that in many cases Italy used the Tomas Aiala name, just as did Solingen. In this case this could well be a Solingen blade in Italy, or other way around but used on smallsword rather than rapier.

@ Jim
very good find, it seems to me that an early 17thC shortened rapier blade is re-used in this 17thC small sword.This was done a lot during the transition from rapier to the much faster small swords, in the second half of the 17thC.
(always shortened at the base not the tip!)
an Italian origin for the blade under discussion is likely.

best,
Jasper

Norman McCormick · 22nd May 2015, 06:21 PM

Hi,
Just noticed

this mark on the tang. Unlikely to be a makers mark, inventory number?

Hi Jasper,
Thanks for finding the photo re Jim's post.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2015, 03:00 AM

As always Jasper, your input here is outstanding and your experience with these weapons truly helps in better evaluating them and understanding key details. I very much appreciate your posting the example from Boccia & Coelho (my scanner is junk!).
As you note, and I misperceived, the tang on this blade does have the length to have been a rapier, and your assessment of date spot on.....
with that......Norman I think you quite possibly have a true Ayala!!

All the best,
Jim

22nd May 2015, 06:21 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi, Just noticed this mark on the tang. Unlikely to be a makers mark, inventory number? Hi Jasper, Thanks for finding the photo re Jim's post. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

14th May 2015, 02:30 PM	#1
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hola Me ha llamado la atencion el motto . No deberia ser MI SEÑAL ES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFIJO Afectosamente. Fernando K (El traductor no permite, o no se, ponerlo como corresponde, en ingles)

14th May 2015, 03:27 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Espaderos were not so good in writing as in forging blades, Fernando . The only letter of the motto i was not sure of, was the H, as this part of my blade was rather worn. But i happened to locate the mentioning of a shell guard sword (item #234) in the Portuguese/Spanish exhibition of 1882 in Lisbon, with the same motto and precisely the same words ... and with the H included. Also the Christ crucified symbols were present in the ricasso. Such sword belonged to D. Jaquim Garcia Toledo from Lisbon.

14th May 2015, 08:54 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Just found it I think Norman, In Boccia & Coelho (#726) there is an Italian smallsword (c 1680-90) with virtually this exact type blade, and the quad dots next to the 'eye' with dot, fuller etc. In this case the 'Tomas' is on obverse side of bade while 'Aiala' other. In this case this tang would insert directly into hilt as seen here, and there would be no 'stem' type ricasso as with rapiers. I'll try to get a pic, but always a challenge with my antiquated tools (and me In Wallace (1962) it is noted that in many cases Italy used the Tomas Aiala name, just as did Solingen. In this case this could well be a Solingen blade in Italy, or other way around but used on smallsword rather than rapier.

15th May 2015, 07:06 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Fernando and Jim, Many thanks for your continued interest and elucidation. I'm still trying to tie down a more specific date and style for this blade but from your replies and what I've found myself the range of possibilities are pretty wide, the search goes on. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman. P.S. Jim, is the blade you refer to etched or stamped/engraved?

15th May 2015, 07:23 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	It is stamped and seems in accord with Solingen work, the date range seems reliable as Boccia & Coelho seems to be such a work . The attribution of the smallsword in to Florence, but it is more a provenance note . As Wallace Coll (Mann,1962) notes from during the lifetime of Tomas Aiala, his name had become rather a trademark for quality and it seems there were blades c1620 from Milan using it. Therefore this could equally, and even probably, be a Milan issue. It seems these 'eye' marks were not apparent in Solingen blades I can recall. Jim P.S. Jim, is the blade you refer to etched or stamped/engraved?[/QUOTE]

17th May 2015, 12:14 PM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Norman, as per your Email request, herewith my opinion; I think it's a rapier blade (given the broad ricasso of same width indeed an early rapier blade and not a small sword blade) from the last quarter of the 16th century perhaps very early 17thC, given the eye mark, probably Italy. Hope it helps. best, jasper

17th May 2015, 06:42 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Jim and Jasper, Many thanks for your thoughts and input, much appreciated. My Regards, Norman.

23rd May 2015, 03:00 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	As always Jasper, your input here is outstanding and your experience with these weapons truly helps in better evaluating them and understanding key details. I very much appreciate your posting the example from Boccia & Coelho (my scanner is junk!). As you note, and I misperceived, the tang on this blade does have the length to have been a rapier, and your assessment of date spot on..... with that......Norman I think you quite possibly have a true Ayala!! All the best, Jim