Basket hilted swords

ulfberth · 9th May 2015, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller!

Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description.

From the National Museum Copenhagen Denmark, Danish, Dutch , north European ?
Kind regards
Ulfberth

Cathey · 10th May 2015, 09:26 AM

Hi Guys

As I mentioned, Rex and I went to Melbourne for an Arms and Armour Auction last weekend. Apart from a number of nice Georgian swords I had targeted an early Basket hilt which I was fortunate enough to secure. The hilt is reasonably early, probably around 1707, however the blade marked with a Fox with a H over the forelegs is probably latter.

This brings me back to the old question which Harvey used just the H over the forelegs on the familiar fox marking. I have seen plenty with SH for Samuel Harvey and have begun to wonder it the absence of the S represents an earlier Harvey such as Joseph.

Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword
Date: Hilt Circa 1707, blade may be latter
Maker/Retailer: Blade made by Harvey
Overall Length: 39 1/4” 99.7 cm fuller 24 3/8” 62 cm
Blade length: 33” 84 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.7 cm
Hilt widest point: 4 ½” 11.2 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.7 cm
Marks, etc.: Stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs.

Description
Glasgow hilt with Cone shaped Pommel, Shields and Guards have bracket cut with central lobes to the edge, Shield and Guard piercings include darts mounted by two circles, other circles and engraved lines. The two shields are pierced by a central star of four points, surrounded by darts mounted by two circles. There is no wrist guard or horseman’s ring. The grip is wood with brass wire. The backsword blade is stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs.

General Remarks
No Horseman’s ring in the guard

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp102 F5c, 109 F13b, 113 F15

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 11th May 2015, 01:14 AM

Another outstanding sword!

Most interesting that the indeed old question of the SH running wolf (fox) on these Harvey blades comes up. This discussion has gone on for many years now, and interesting situation that there were three Samuel Harvey's, senior b. 1698; his son Jr. and grandson III. The grandson died in 1810.

I had actually never heard of a Joseph, so curious as to where he would fall into the range of this dynasty.

It seems there was no particular chronology or documented evidence of these marks used by the Harvey's at a particular time. I recall having one of the horsemans swords with HARVEY in blocks letters across the forte many years ago.
Some blades are marked S HARVEY without the fox; on a slotted guard hilt c. 1780 the blade is stamped H/VEY below a crown.

One of these swords in Neumann (19.S) has a blade c.1750-68 with this same fox and letter H only. This seems the correct period for this blade which as indicated post dates the hilt.

I have always wondered what prompted the Harvey's to adopt the well known 'running wolf' of the expatriate Solingen smiths in England from Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, and when this occurred. It is curious as these were not used exclusively in either of these German 'arrangements', and the use of the mark in Solingen had expired during these times as well.
As far as I know no other English maker ever used the 'fox', and the inclination of its use seems inconsistent with the Harvey's.

It seems Eljay had come up with similar findings some years ago.

Cathey · 11th May 2015, 04:21 AM

Hi Jim

Actually there are quite a few Harveys, according to my data base as follows:
Harvey, George: 1777 – 1780 21 Park St
Harvey, John: 1630 - 1645
Harvey, John: 1849 – 1854 40 High St, Deritend
Harvey, John: 1855 - Albert Works, Glover St
Harvey, John: 1860 - 27 Adderley St
Harvey, John: 1865 – 1882 123 Steelbouse Lane
Harvey, John: 1883 – 1897 Coleshill St
Harvey, Joseph: 1800 – 1814 16 Upper Priory
Harvey, Joseph: 1815 – 1820 Park St
Harvey, Mary: 1847 - High St, Deritend
Harvey, William: 1816 – 1820 High St

There is even a Mary for a short time. The earliest Harvey appears to be a John Harvey, but as you say I can find no records of when or who used what version of the fox. I guess we will never know unless we can accuratley date some blades, but as Baskets often had there blades updated, this is not much help either.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 11th May 2015, 06:33 AM

Thanks Cathey, very impressive genealogical grouping, and it of course makes sense that the family would have had other members. I used only Annis & May and Southwick which focus only on the recorded smiths I believe but I don't have them handy to recheck.
It does seem that the others listed here, and were of course smiths, fall outside the scope of the blade form, George was possible I suppose..but John in the 17th c. too early.

With John it is tempting to think that perhaps he had some dealings with the German smiths at Hounslow, and brought the running wolf notion into the family blades but this can only be a most tenuous supposition.

It does remain tempting to think that George might have left out the S, but seems odd as the Samuels were still at it concurrently. As Samuel Jr. died in 1778 during George's time of activity that is tempting thought.

I guess we will have to concede to there being notable variations in the Harvey's marks and rely on blade character for estimates.
It was apparently common for officers in Scottish regiments to use heirloom blades or for that matter hilts at their disgression so these kinds of pairings not unusual.

Wonderful swords!! Keep them coming please!

Best regards,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th May 2015, 12:39 PM

Salaams All, I wonder if I can cut across several posts here and introduce the following article on Basket Hilts which as an introduction I Quote" With Open "S" Paneled Guards
Anthony D. Darling
The two swords illustrated and discussed in this
paper are of particular importance to students and
collectors of 18th century British military edged
weapons, primarily those in use prior to the first regulation
patterns of 1788.' One (1 A), having a brass
hilt, is a cavalry sword while the other (IB), with steel
hilt, is the weapon of an infantryman. Contemporary
pictorial evidence indicates that the latter was in use
as early as 1742 and, as the former's guard configuration
resembles its infantry counterpart so closely,
we can safely assume that both swords date from this
period. What is strange is that so fragile a metal as
brass would have been used for the hilt of a mounted
man's sword, his primary weapon, whereas swords
were rarely used by infantry, and, if so, only as a last
resort. In fact, swords were abolished for infantry
privates save for grenadier^,^ Highlanders and drummers
in 176€L3 Records indicate that many infantry
regiments had in fact stopped wearing swords during
the Seven Years' War (1756-1763).4
Infantry Sword
This sword, or "hanger," has a slightly curved,
single-edged 28-inch blade with one narrow fuller.
The blade is stamped with the remains of a "running
fox" mark which may indicate the work of the Birmingham
sword cutler, Samuel Ha r v e y....." Unquote. For the entire document I reccommend http://americansocietyofarmscollecto...49_Darling.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th May 2015, 02:25 PM

Salaams....and heres another thing ! I didnt know that Mazanskys work was on the web ..free...and it is essential reading...please see the slightly incomplete but hugely informative work which goes in for Typology of this enormously morphed style of sword...This work certainly helps the reader balance the various weapons. Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...ration&f=false

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

10th May 2015, 09:26 AM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword Hi Guys As I mentioned, Rex and I went to Melbourne for an Arms and Armour Auction last weekend. Apart from a number of nice Georgian swords I had targeted an early Basket hilt which I was fortunate enough to secure. The hilt is reasonably early, probably around 1707, however the blade marked with a Fox with a H over the forelegs is probably latter. This brings me back to the old question which Harvey used just the H over the forelegs on the familiar fox marking. I have seen plenty with SH for Samuel Harvey and have begun to wonder it the absence of the S represents an earlier Harvey such as Joseph. Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword Date: Hilt Circa 1707, blade may be latter Maker/Retailer: Blade made by Harvey Overall Length: 39 1/4” 99.7 cm fuller 24 3/8” 62 cm Blade length: 33” 84 cm Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.7 cm Hilt widest point: 4 ½” 11.2 cm Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.7 cm Marks, etc.: Stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs. Description Glasgow hilt with Cone shaped Pommel, Shields and Guards have bracket cut with central lobes to the edge, Shield and Guard piercings include darts mounted by two circles, other circles and engraved lines. The two shields are pierced by a central star of four points, surrounded by darts mounted by two circles. There is no wrist guard or horseman’s ring. The grip is wood with brass wire. The backsword blade is stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs. General Remarks No Horseman’s ring in the guard References: MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp102 F5c, 109 F13b, 113 F15 Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

11th May 2015, 04:21 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Harveys Hi Jim Actually there are quite a few Harveys, according to my data base as follows: Harvey, George: 1777 – 1780 21 Park St Harvey, John: 1630 - 1645 Harvey, John: 1849 – 1854 40 High St, Deritend Harvey, John: 1855 - Albert Works, Glover St Harvey, John: 1860 - 27 Adderley St Harvey, John: 1865 – 1882 123 Steelbouse Lane Harvey, John: 1883 – 1897 Coleshill St Harvey, Joseph: 1800 – 1814 16 Upper Priory Harvey, Joseph: 1815 – 1820 Park St Harvey, Mary: 1847 - High St, Deritend Harvey, William: 1816 – 1820 High St There is even a Mary for a short time. The earliest Harvey appears to be a John Harvey, but as you say I can find no records of when or who used what version of the fox. I guess we will never know unless we can accuratley date some blades, but as Baskets often had there blades updated, this is not much help either. Cheers Cathey and Rex

11th May 2015, 01:14 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Another outstanding sword! Most interesting that the indeed old question of the SH running wolf (fox) on these Harvey blades comes up. This discussion has gone on for many years now, and interesting situation that there were three Samuel Harvey's, senior b. 1698; his son Jr. and grandson III. The grandson died in 1810. I had actually never heard of a Joseph, so curious as to where he would fall into the range of this dynasty. It seems there was no particular chronology or documented evidence of these marks used by the Harvey's at a particular time. I recall having one of the horsemans swords with HARVEY in blocks letters across the forte many years ago. Some blades are marked S HARVEY without the fox; on a slotted guard hilt c. 1780 the blade is stamped H/VEY below a crown. One of these swords in Neumann (19.S) has a blade c.1750-68 with this same fox and letter H only. This seems the correct period for this blade which as indicated post dates the hilt. I have always wondered what prompted the Harvey's to adopt the well known 'running wolf' of the expatriate Solingen smiths in England from Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, and when this occurred. It is curious as these were not used exclusively in either of these German 'arrangements', and the use of the mark in Solingen had expired during these times as well. As far as I know no other English maker ever used the 'fox', and the inclination of its use seems inconsistent with the Harvey's. It seems Eljay had come up with similar findings some years ago.

11th May 2015, 06:33 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thanks Cathey, very impressive genealogical grouping, and it of course makes sense that the family would have had other members. I used only Annis & May and Southwick which focus only on the recorded smiths I believe but I don't have them handy to recheck. It does seem that the others listed here, and were of course smiths, fall outside the scope of the blade form, George was possible I suppose..but John in the 17th c. too early. With John it is tempting to think that perhaps he had some dealings with the German smiths at Hounslow, and brought the running wolf notion into the family blades but this can only be a most tenuous supposition. It does remain tempting to think that George might have left out the S, but seems odd as the Samuels were still at it concurrently. As Samuel Jr. died in 1778 during George's time of activity that is tempting thought. I guess we will have to concede to there being notable variations in the Harvey's marks and rely on blade character for estimates. It was apparently common for officers in Scottish regiments to use heirloom blades or for that matter hilts at their disgression so these kinds of pairings not unusual. Wonderful swords!! Keep them coming please! Best regards, Jim

11th May 2015, 12:39 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All, I wonder if I can cut across several posts here and introduce the following article on Basket Hilts which as an introduction I Quote" With Open "S" Paneled Guards Anthony D. Darling The two swords illustrated and discussed in this paper are of particular importance to students and collectors of 18th century British military edged weapons, primarily those in use prior to the first regulation patterns of 1788.' One (1 A), having a brass hilt, is a cavalry sword while the other (IB), with steel hilt, is the weapon of an infantryman. Contemporary pictorial evidence indicates that the latter was in use as early as 1742 and, as the former's guard configuration resembles its infantry counterpart so closely, we can safely assume that both swords date from this period. What is strange is that so fragile a metal as brass would have been used for the hilt of a mounted man's sword, his primary weapon, whereas swords were rarely used by infantry, and, if so, only as a last resort. In fact, swords were abolished for infantry privates save for grenadier^,^ Highlanders and drummers in 176€L3 Records indicate that many infantry regiments had in fact stopped wearing swords during the Seven Years' War (1756-1763).4 Infantry Sword This sword, or "hanger," has a slightly curved, single-edged 28-inch blade with one narrow fuller. The blade is stamped with the remains of a "running fox" mark which may indicate the work of the Birmingham sword cutler, Samuel Ha r v e y....." Unquote. For the entire document I reccommend http://americansocietyofarmscollecto...49_Darling.pdf Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

11th May 2015, 02:25 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams....and heres another thing ! I didnt know that Mazanskys work was on the web ..free...and it is essential reading...please see the slightly incomplete but hugely informative work which goes in for Typology of this enormously morphed style of sword...This work certainly helps the reader balance the various weapons. Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...ration&f=false Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.