Keris blade styles

David · 2nd May 2015, 06:30 PM

You may find this thread useful.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=TokChu
I know we have discussed Tok Chu keris on numerous occasions, but unfortunately or search engine has a hard time locating words with 3 letters or less in them.

You will find a bit more for "Melela".
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=485414
As for the name game, we human have a habit of needinf to place everything into neat little categories. Unfortunately these things don't always fit so neatly. Also we have different groups of humans using the same name for different things or different names for the same thing. Also we find that names change over the years and new keris terminology is still being added by collectors. I think we need to always be prepared to confront this confusion and i'm not sure that we can ever find definitive answers to proper naming. It's not really a matter of right or wrong, just differences of opinion. I have always believed that the true nature and understanding of keris is to be found beyond the naming of things.

Gustav · 3rd May 2015, 11:11 AM

Regarding keris attributed Tok Chu to Tok Chu, perhaps the most useful thread is:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7618

Perhaps it sounds harsh, but the information from the thread David linked in previous post sounds like a typical dealers invention with the purpose to sell better their stuff - three completely different keris from at least two very different time periods and quite different quality are linked to a famous name; "tok chu luk, normally with 3 n 5 luk, tokchu pamor, tok chu with 'belalai gajah' with atmost (sic) similar to keris malela" has been "introduced", the Tok Chu now appears to have lived circa 150 years earlier, in a more "magically loaded" time...

Becouse of such "inventions" I am afraid, there are almost none possibilities for a serious research left, and absolutely none in about 30 years for sure.

My apologies for spoiling the business.

Rick · 3rd May 2015, 02:08 PM

No need to apologize for speaking the truth Gustav .
Speaking for myself I agree this is currently the greatest problem with keris study .

Green · 5th May 2015, 05:36 PM

Many thanks David and Gustav for the links which are very informative but also confusing .This forum is certainly addictive and I'm slowly learning.

Thank you all, on 8th May I'm meeting a pandai in Kelantan that make new blades copying the styles of tok chu and pandai saras. Hope to learn a bit more from him.

David · 5th May 2015, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Regarding keris attributed Tok Chu to Tok Chu, perhaps the most useful thread is:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7618

Perhaps it sounds harsh, but the information from the thread David linked in previous post sounds like a typical dealers invention with the purpose to sell better their stuff - three completely different keris from at least two very different time periods and quite different quality are linked to a famous name; "tok chu luk, normally with 3 n 5 luk, tokchu pamor, tok chu with 'belalai gajah' with atmost (sic) similar to keris malela" has been "introduced", the Tok Chu now appears to have lived circa 150 years earlier, in a more "magically loaded" time...

Becouse of such "inventions" I am afraid, there are almost none possibilities for a serious research left, and absolutely none in about 30 years for sure.

My apologies for spoiling the business.

That was part of why i posted it because i thought it explained Green's confusion about seeing multiply styles of blades called Tok Chu. As you probably noted in the thread i was most aggressive with the OP trying to make some sense of the multiple styles he presented being seen under the single name of Tok Chu. I don't believe any of us were fooled at the time.

Green · 9th May 2015, 06:38 AM

and so I paid a visit to pandai besi known as Najo in Pasir Mas Kelantan yesterday. You can count the best keris makers in Malaysia on one hand right now and he is now the pre eminent pandai besi in kelantan.( The best keris maker by the name of Mustapha unfortunately passed away last year in his early fifties due to heart failure).

He (Najo) make copies of pandai saras, tok chu and malela and here are some examples that reinforce the current understanding of the characteristic shapes of these blade styles.

Pic 1: variations of Tok Chu. the bottom one is his exact copy of an 'original' Tok Chu. Although the size and width look like Tok Chu it is not massive and heavy as an original Tok Chu.

pic 2: Pandai Saras. The bottom one is not yet finished.

pic 3: Malela. The bottom one was made by the famous Mustafa and now belongs to me :-)

Carita, according to Najo is a malela look but without the luks.

My apologies for the poor pics. (blame it on cheap digital cam :-) )

Gustav · 9th May 2015, 11:40 AM

Green, thank you very much for posting these. It's interesting to see what's going on in Malaysia.

Perhaps would it be possible for you to post some close ups of your new Malela?

Green · 9th May 2015, 05:54 PM

Gustav, The blade is still with Najo as he is making the scabbard for my malela now and will be ready next month. I will post close up pics when I get it next month.

maxbliss888 · 12th June 2015, 05:40 PM

Tok Chu ?

9th May 2015, 06:38 AM	#6
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 320	and so I paid a visit to pandai besi known as Najo in Pasir Mas Kelantan yesterday. You can count the best keris makers in Malaysia on one hand right now and he is now the pre eminent pandai besi in kelantan.( The best keris maker by the name of Mustapha unfortunately passed away last year in his early fifties due to heart failure). He (Najo) make copies of pandai saras, tok chu and malela and here are some examples that reinforce the current understanding of the characteristic shapes of these blade styles. Pic 1: variations of Tok Chu. the bottom one is his exact copy of an 'original' Tok Chu. Although the size and width look like Tok Chu it is not massive and heavy as an original Tok Chu. pic 2: Pandai Saras. The bottom one is not yet finished. pic 3: Malela. The bottom one was made by the famous Mustafa and now belongs to me :-) Carita, according to Najo is a malela look but without the luks. My apologies for the poor pics. (blame it on cheap digital cam :-) ) Attached Images

12th June 2015, 05:40 PM	#9
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Keris Tok chu Tok Chu ? Attached Images Last edited by maxbliss888; 12th June 2015 at 06:03 PM.

2nd May 2015, 06:30 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	You may find this thread useful. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=TokChu I know we have discussed Tok Chu keris on numerous occasions, but unfortunately or search engine has a hard time locating words with 3 letters or less in them. You will find a bit more for "Melela". http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=485414 As for the name game, we human have a habit of needinf to place everything into neat little categories. Unfortunately these things don't always fit so neatly. Also we have different groups of humans using the same name for different things or different names for the same thing. Also we find that names change over the years and new keris terminology is still being added by collectors. I think we need to always be prepared to confront this confusion and i'm not sure that we can ever find definitive answers to proper naming. It's not really a matter of right or wrong, just differences of opinion. I have always believed that the true nature and understanding of keris is to be found beyond the naming of things.

3rd May 2015, 11:11 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Regarding keris attributed Tok Chu to Tok Chu, perhaps the most useful thread is: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7618 Perhaps it sounds harsh, but the information from the thread David linked in previous post sounds like a typical dealers invention with the purpose to sell better their stuff - three completely different keris from at least two very different time periods and quite different quality are linked to a famous name; "tok chu luk, normally with 3 n 5 luk, tokchu pamor, tok chu with 'belalai gajah' with atmost (sic) similar to keris malela" has been "introduced", the Tok Chu now appears to have lived circa 150 years earlier, in a more "magically loaded" time... Becouse of such "inventions" I am afraid, there are almost none possibilities for a serious research left, and absolutely none in about 30 years for sure. My apologies for spoiling the business.

3rd May 2015, 02:08 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	No need to apologize for speaking the truth Gustav . Speaking for myself I agree this is currently the greatest problem with keris study .

5th May 2015, 05:36 PM	#4
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 320	Many thanks David and Gustav for the links which are very informative but also confusing .This forum is certainly addictive and I'm slowly learning. Thank you all, on 8th May I'm meeting a pandai in Kelantan that make new blades copying the styles of tok chu and pandai saras. Hope to learn a bit more from him.

9th May 2015, 11:40 AM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Green, thank you very much for posting these. It's interesting to see what's going on in Malaysia. Perhaps would it be possible for you to post some close ups of your new Malela?

9th May 2015, 05:54 PM	#8
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 320	Gustav, The blade is still with Najo as he is making the scabbard for my malela now and will be ready next month. I will post close up pics when I get it next month.