Basket hilted swords

Cathey · 25th April 2015, 08:19 AM

Hi Ibrahiim,

I suspect the Basket hilt in its simplest form did originate in England, although given that mercenary’s etc travelled all over Britain they may well have been in use by the Scott’s and the Irish at the same time. As you say I doubt we will ever truly put the question to bed. The large spiracle pommels often found on these early swords certainly appear to be linked with English manufacture of the time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Mark Deyer · 26th April 2015, 02:59 PM

Here are some more image s

Mark Deyer · 26th April 2015, 03:59 PM

Hi,
Some more. the apparent indent in the blade is the white sheet overlapping the blade not a wornpiece/missing part.
Mark

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2015, 02:33 AM

Thank you for posting this great example again. In the spirit of those here who enjoy observing various aspects of these examples and viewing these as 'clues' as to the possible 'history' they may hold, I wanted to add some thoughts.

As discussed, the hilt of this sword is 'of the type' referred to in fig. 7 of A,Darling (1974, p.86) considered a 'half basket' and indeed it is noted the form is commonly associated with the 'Inniskilling dragoons'.

What is most interesting here are the English style 'bun' pommel, which also seems consistent with English dragoon hilts mid 18th, while in place of the downturned quillon seen on some of these...the guard has a widened turned down extension which resembles those seen on earlier Scottish basket hilts (beginning of 18th, per Whitelaw).

Though these hilts are often associated with the Inniskillings, it is not clear at which period this might have been, nor that this was a hard and fast association. Certainly these swords did not follow 'patterns' in these times.
It might be argued however, that if the crudely inscribed numbers on the hilt were indeed '1751' rather than 1731.....that date is significant because in that year , 1751, the regiment was 'officially' designated 'Inniskillings'.
Prior to that they were known as Cunninghams Dragoons or 'Black Dragoons' etc.
It would be of course tenuous to suggest that this date would be inscribed in this manner, but it is worthy of note.
Naturally the 60 may have any numbers of purposes, most obvious an inventory or rack related number.

On the guard, the curious punctions as dots in linear fashion to me recall the 'paternosters' seen occasionally on swords of earlier times. The other device or mark is unclear but it would interesting to discover its relation to such a religious or talismanic type arrangement. Again, this speculation is simply suggested as a possible solution.

These are just notes I would observe, and hope some out there might find them worthy of discussion.

E.B. Erickson · 29th April 2015, 03:34 PM

First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller!

Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description.

cornelistromp · 29th April 2015, 04:14 PM

yes I can confirm in all probability a possible Dutch origin for those basket hilted swords.
I have sold this sword from my collection through eBay, the sword came from the Henk Visser collection, a well known collector of Dutch arms. btw the pommel is fine.

the hilt of the Pictures page (Dutch swords) posted at eBay are all found in Dutch soil.
they may of course have been coming from Germany but it is also quite possible that they are (partly) made in Netherlands.if I remember correctly, there was a sword in the Visser collection with the same basket hilt as #51 #52(+ Higgins) with a Dutch name on the blade "Hans Adam" published by JP Puype in the Visser collection.

I have had some discussions with the writer of the above Book, Dutch weapon specialist, arms and armour writer/authority and former curator of different Museums JP Puype about the possible Dutch origin of those basket hilts.

see also the DUTCH basket hilts post #3 #4 #24 with the same basket in.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18811
best,

Cathey · 30th April 2015, 06:20 AM

Thank you Mark for re-posting your sword, the variety of markings is most interesting. I have never seen punch marks like this before. I do have a sword where previous engraving has been obscured by punch marks, but nothing quite like this.

The sword I refer to is:
Brass hilted Highland Officer’s Basket Hilt
Date: Pattern 1798
Nationality: British – Scottish Regiment
Overall Length: 94.8 cm (37.3 inches)
Blade length: 80.6 cm (31.7 inches)
Blade widest point: 2.985 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.4 cm (5.3 inches)
Inside grip length: 10.3 cm (4.1 inches)
Marks, etc: Marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The stars appear to have been applied to strike out other letters. These letters look like R.I.I.J.I.R?

Description
1798 Pattern Highland infantry officer's backsword; the type carried by Scottish infantry regiments during the Peninsula War and Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon's forces. The single fullered blade is marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The hilt is brass hilt is constructed of solid plain panels and has remnants of past gilding. The grip is fish skin with brass wire.

General Remarks
The 1798 Pattern was the first attempt by the British to standardize sword patterns for the Scottish regiments and was very loose in some respects, with blades coming from Solingen (Prussia / Germany), England and Scotland, clearly with officers mounting the blades from their existing pre-pattern swords. The brass hilt is fundamentally weaker than steel hilts, hence the pattern is rare as the hilts suffered terribly over time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Cathey · 30th April 2015, 06:27 AM

Hi Eljay and Cornelistromp

These Dutch baskets are so intricate in design, I had no idea such variety existed and can honestly say I have never had the pleasure of seeing one in the flesh. Any idea what the name of the book is, the pictures in it look like a valuable reference source.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd May 2015, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

yes I can confirm in all probability a possible Dutch origin for those basket hilted swords.
I have sold this sword from my collection through eBay, the sword came from the Henk Visser collection, a well known collector of Dutch arms. btw the pommel is fine.

the hilt of the Pictures page (Dutch swords) posted at eBay are all found in Dutch soil.
they may of course have been coming from Germany but it is also quite possible that they are (partly) made in Netherlands.if I remember correctly, there was a sword in the Visser collection with the same basket hilt as #51 #52(+ Higgins) with a Dutch name on the blade "Hans Adam" published by JP Puype in the Visser collection.

I have had some discussions with the writer of the above Book, Dutch weapon specialist, arms and armour writer/authority and former curator of different Museums JP Puype about the possible Dutch origin of those basket hilts.

see also the DUTCH basket hilts post #3 #4 #24 with the same basket in.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18811
best,

Salaams Cornelistromp, Great illustrations and what a learning curve this subject is... However...I understand that the Fleur de Lys shape ~on the basket, is in fact, a set of horns... and was associated with the Scottish style. How then is it Dutch? Though of course your note about it being partly Dutch is understood... Perhaps the horns were added in Scotland?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 4th May 2015, 05:03 AM

Fascinating brass basket hilt! The blade (as always) is intriguing, especially being a 'Drury' blade. Apparently Drury in 1771 joined in business with Nathaniel Jeffries, and these two men were both producers of blades found on British military swords in this time. Jeffries was succeeded by Drury by 1772, and the Drury blades are the most commonly seen of the two as I understand.

By 1777, Drury was bankrupt but continued in business and supplying until 1786 (he died in 1804). According to Darling ("Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784", 1988, p.17) he was supplying until 1784, as noted 'the year privates in Highland regiments ceased wearing swords'.

As Darling notes on p.18 (op.cit.) "...to whom were these Drury signed swords issued? Between 1775 and 1779 eight Highland regiments, one of two battalions, were raised, one of which, the Royal Highland Emigrants, was levied in Canada".

Is it possible that these curious markings at the forte near blade back might have something to do with such issuance? perhaps 'E C' might represent Emigrants Canada? with the obscured word unclear (this seems unusual to see anything stamped in this location on blade....obviously the maker was Drury).

Whatever the case, these basket hilts seem to have been of steel, while later hilts (c.1790s) for Scottish units were often gilt brass (copper). The configuration of plates and bars in the guard correspond to cavalry hilts c.1750 in form (obviously steel, Mazansky, 2005, p.141) but are seen in similar examples in the same reference (p.130-132) which are brass with some having similar pommel (type IV, Mazansky) a low cone with cross strap design.

The 1798 pattern seems unclear (Robson, p.124, "Swords of the British Army", 1975), but he notes compelling references suggesting they were indeed brass. Most of the examples in Mazansky seem to be to grenadier or fusilier units of Scottish regiments, with the components very similar.

Could this earlier blade have been joined with one of the brass hilts in refurbishing for Napoleonic campaigns? If the Highland unit of 'Emigrant Canada' was levied there, it obviously was not stationed there. Still, would the arms issued be somehow kept separately accountable in inventory context?

This is one of the great fascinations of studying these swords...what stories of their working lives can be revealed as we look into the clues?

cornelistromp · 4th May 2015, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Cornelistromp, Great illustrations and what a learning curve this subject is... However...I understand that the Fleur de Lys shape ~on the basket, is in fact, a set of horns... and was associated with the Scottish style. How then is it Dutch? Though of course your note about it being partly Dutch is understood... Perhaps the horns were added in Scotland?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

salaams Ibrahiim,

I have absolutely no idea what you mean

This type of baskethilt is Dutch or German, certainly not scottish.
also the fleur de lis is not retrofitted in Scotland.
with partly Dutch I mean, the hilt can be Dutch, and the blade can be German and vice versa!

F/m a filling of a fleur de lis in the inner and outer guard appeared frequently in the second half of the 16th century in western Europe.
attached a twohanded sword of Standler 1580 and a German guard auctioned at Thomas del mar last year.
best,

‡ A GERMAN TWO HAND PROCESSIONAL SWORD HILT, LAST QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY
of flattened iron bars, formed of a pair of quillons with bud-shaped finials, and a tightly curled lug above and below, an additional pair of basal lugs, and inner and outer guard each filled with a fleur-de-lys
42.5 cm; 16 ¾ in wide

Provenance
The armoury of His Imperial Highness, Archduke Eugen, Veste Hohenwerfen, Salzburg, sold Anderson Galleries, New York, 4 March 1927, lot 855, $12.50

JWHA Inv. No. 177
Estimate: 400-600

ulfberth · 9th May 2015, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller!

Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description.

From the National Museum Copenhagen Denmark, Danish, Dutch , north European ?
Kind regards
Ulfberth

Cathey · 10th May 2015, 10:26 AM

Hi Guys

As I mentioned, Rex and I went to Melbourne for an Arms and Armour Auction last weekend. Apart from a number of nice Georgian swords I had targeted an early Basket hilt which I was fortunate enough to secure. The hilt is reasonably early, probably around 1707, however the blade marked with a Fox with a H over the forelegs is probably latter.

This brings me back to the old question which Harvey used just the H over the forelegs on the familiar fox marking. I have seen plenty with SH for Samuel Harvey and have begun to wonder it the absence of the S represents an earlier Harvey such as Joseph.

Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword
Date: Hilt Circa 1707, blade may be latter
Maker/Retailer: Blade made by Harvey
Overall Length: 39 1/4” 99.7 cm fuller 24 3/8” 62 cm
Blade length: 33” 84 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.7 cm
Hilt widest point: 4 ½” 11.2 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.7 cm
Marks, etc.: Stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs.

Description
Glasgow hilt with Cone shaped Pommel, Shields and Guards have bracket cut with central lobes to the edge, Shield and Guard piercings include darts mounted by two circles, other circles and engraved lines. The two shields are pierced by a central star of four points, surrounded by darts mounted by two circles. There is no wrist guard or horseman’s ring. The grip is wood with brass wire. The backsword blade is stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs.

General Remarks
No Horseman’s ring in the guard

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp102 F5c, 109 F13b, 113 F15

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 11th May 2015, 02:14 AM

Another outstanding sword!

Most interesting that the indeed old question of the SH running wolf (fox) on these Harvey blades comes up. This discussion has gone on for many years now, and interesting situation that there were three Samuel Harvey's, senior b. 1698; his son Jr. and grandson III. The grandson died in 1810.

I had actually never heard of a Joseph, so curious as to where he would fall into the range of this dynasty.

It seems there was no particular chronology or documented evidence of these marks used by the Harvey's at a particular time. I recall having one of the horsemans swords with HARVEY in blocks letters across the forte many years ago.
Some blades are marked S HARVEY without the fox; on a slotted guard hilt c. 1780 the blade is stamped H/VEY below a crown.

One of these swords in Neumann (19.S) has a blade c.1750-68 with this same fox and letter H only. This seems the correct period for this blade which as indicated post dates the hilt.

I have always wondered what prompted the Harvey's to adopt the well known 'running wolf' of the expatriate Solingen smiths in England from Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, and when this occurred. It is curious as these were not used exclusively in either of these German 'arrangements', and the use of the mark in Solingen had expired during these times as well.
As far as I know no other English maker ever used the 'fox', and the inclination of its use seems inconsistent with the Harvey's.

It seems Eljay had come up with similar findings some years ago.

25th April 2015, 08:19 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Origins of the Basket hilt Hi Ibrahiim, I suspect the Basket hilt in its simplest form did originate in England, although given that mercenary’s etc travelled all over Britain they may well have been in use by the Scott’s and the Irish at the same time. As you say I doubt we will ever truly put the question to bed. The large spiracle pommels often found on these early swords certainly appear to be linked with English manufacture of the time. Cheers Cathey and Rex

29th April 2015, 04:14 PM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	yes I can confirm in all probability a possible Dutch origin for those basket hilted swords. I have sold this sword from my collection through eBay, the sword came from the Henk Visser collection, a well known collector of Dutch arms. btw the pommel is fine. the hilt of the Pictures page (Dutch swords) posted at eBay are all found in Dutch soil. they may of course have been coming from Germany but it is also quite possible that they are (partly) made in Netherlands.if I remember correctly, there was a sword in the Visser collection with the same basket hilt as #51 #52(+ Higgins) with a Dutch name on the blade "Hans Adam" published by JP Puype in the Visser collection. I have had some discussions with the writer of the above Book, Dutch weapon specialist, arms and armour writer/authority and former curator of different Museums JP Puype about the possible Dutch origin of those basket hilts. see also the DUTCH basket hilts post #3 #4 #24 with the same basket in. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18811 best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 29th April 2015 at 07:37 PM.

30th April 2015, 06:20 AM	#7
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Brass hilted Basket Hilt Backsword Thank you Mark for re-posting your sword, the variety of markings is most interesting. I have never seen punch marks like this before. I do have a sword where previous engraving has been obscured by punch marks, but nothing quite like this. The sword I refer to is: Brass hilted Highland Officer’s Basket Hilt Date: Pattern 1798 Nationality: British – Scottish Regiment Overall Length: 94.8 cm (37.3 inches) Blade length: 80.6 cm (31.7 inches) Blade widest point: 2.985 cm (1.2 inches) Hilt widest point: 13.4 cm (5.3 inches) Inside grip length: 10.3 cm (4.1 inches) Marks, etc: Marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The stars appear to have been applied to strike out other letters. These letters look like R.I.I.J.I.R? Description 1798 Pattern Highland infantry officer's backsword; the type carried by Scottish infantry regiments during the Peninsula War and Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon's forces. The single fullered blade is marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The hilt is brass hilt is constructed of solid plain panels and has remnants of past gilding. The grip is fish skin with brass wire. General Remarks The 1798 Pattern was the first attempt by the British to standardize sword patterns for the Scottish regiments and was very loose in some respects, with blades coming from Solingen (Prussia / Germany), England and Scotland, clearly with officers mounting the blades from their existing pre-pattern swords. The brass hilt is fundamentally weaker than steel hilts, hence the pattern is rare as the hilts suffered terribly over time. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

30th April 2015, 06:27 AM	#8
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Dutch Baskets Hi Eljay and Cornelistromp These Dutch baskets are so intricate in design, I had no idea such variety existed and can honestly say I have never had the pleasure of seeing one in the flesh. Any idea what the name of the book is, the pictures in it look like a valuable reference source. Cheers Cathey and Rex

10th May 2015, 10:26 AM	#13
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword Hi Guys As I mentioned, Rex and I went to Melbourne for an Arms and Armour Auction last weekend. Apart from a number of nice Georgian swords I had targeted an early Basket hilt which I was fortunate enough to secure. The hilt is reasonably early, probably around 1707, however the blade marked with a Fox with a H over the forelegs is probably latter. This brings me back to the old question which Harvey used just the H over the forelegs on the familiar fox marking. I have seen plenty with SH for Samuel Harvey and have begun to wonder it the absence of the S represents an earlier Harvey such as Joseph. Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword Date: Hilt Circa 1707, blade may be latter Maker/Retailer: Blade made by Harvey Overall Length: 39 1/4” 99.7 cm fuller 24 3/8” 62 cm Blade length: 33” 84 cm Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.7 cm Hilt widest point: 4 ½” 11.2 cm Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.7 cm Marks, etc.: Stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs. Description Glasgow hilt with Cone shaped Pommel, Shields and Guards have bracket cut with central lobes to the edge, Shield and Guard piercings include darts mounted by two circles, other circles and engraved lines. The two shields are pierced by a central star of four points, surrounded by darts mounted by two circles. There is no wrist guard or horseman’s ring. The grip is wood with brass wire. The backsword blade is stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs. General Remarks No Horseman’s ring in the guard References: MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp102 F5c, 109 F13b, 113 F15 Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

26th April 2015, 02:59 PM	#2
Mark Deyer Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 5	Here are some more image s Attached Images

26th April 2015, 03:59 PM	#3
Mark Deyer Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 5	Hi, Some more. the apparent indent in the blade is the white sheet overlapping the blade not a wornpiece/missing part. Mark Attached Images

27th April 2015, 02:33 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Thank you for posting this great example again. In the spirit of those here who enjoy observing various aspects of these examples and viewing these as 'clues' as to the possible 'history' they may hold, I wanted to add some thoughts. As discussed, the hilt of this sword is 'of the type' referred to in fig. 7 of A,Darling (1974, p.86) considered a 'half basket' and indeed it is noted the form is commonly associated with the 'Inniskilling dragoons'. What is most interesting here are the English style 'bun' pommel, which also seems consistent with English dragoon hilts mid 18th, while in place of the downturned quillon seen on some of these...the guard has a widened turned down extension which resembles those seen on earlier Scottish basket hilts (beginning of 18th, per Whitelaw). Though these hilts are often associated with the Inniskillings, it is not clear at which period this might have been, nor that this was a hard and fast association. Certainly these swords did not follow 'patterns' in these times. It might be argued however, that if the crudely inscribed numbers on the hilt were indeed '1751' rather than 1731.....that date is significant because in that year , 1751, the regiment was 'officially' designated 'Inniskillings'. Prior to that they were known as Cunninghams Dragoons or 'Black Dragoons' etc. It would be of course tenuous to suggest that this date would be inscribed in this manner, but it is worthy of note. Naturally the 60 may have any numbers of purposes, most obvious an inventory or rack related number. On the guard, the curious punctions as dots in linear fashion to me recall the 'paternosters' seen occasionally on swords of earlier times. The other device or mark is unclear but it would interesting to discover its relation to such a religious or talismanic type arrangement. Again, this speculation is simply suggested as a possible solution. These are just notes I would observe, and hope some out there might find them worthy of discussion.

29th April 2015, 03:34 PM	#5
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller! Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description. Attached Images

4th May 2015, 05:03 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Fascinating brass basket hilt! The blade (as always) is intriguing, especially being a 'Drury' blade. Apparently Drury in 1771 joined in business with Nathaniel Jeffries, and these two men were both producers of blades found on British military swords in this time. Jeffries was succeeded by Drury by 1772, and the Drury blades are the most commonly seen of the two as I understand. By 1777, Drury was bankrupt but continued in business and supplying until 1786 (he died in 1804). According to Darling ("Swords for the Highland Regiments 1757-1784", 1988, p.17) he was supplying until 1784, as noted 'the year privates in Highland regiments ceased wearing swords'. As Darling notes on p.18 (op.cit.) "...to whom were these Drury signed swords issued? Between 1775 and 1779 eight Highland regiments, one of two battalions, were raised, one of which, the Royal Highland Emigrants, was levied in Canada". Is it possible that these curious markings at the forte near blade back might have something to do with such issuance? perhaps 'E C' might represent Emigrants Canada? with the obscured word unclear (this seems unusual to see anything stamped in this location on blade....obviously the maker was Drury). Whatever the case, these basket hilts seem to have been of steel, while later hilts (c.1790s) for Scottish units were often gilt brass (copper). The configuration of plates and bars in the guard correspond to cavalry hilts c.1750 in form (obviously steel, Mazansky, 2005, p.141) but are seen in similar examples in the same reference (p.130-132) which are brass with some having similar pommel (type IV, Mazansky) a low cone with cross strap design. The 1798 pattern seems unclear (Robson, p.124, "Swords of the British Army", 1975), but he notes compelling references suggesting they were indeed brass. Most of the examples in Mazansky seem to be to grenadier or fusilier units of Scottish regiments, with the components very similar. Could this earlier blade have been joined with one of the brass hilts in refurbishing for Napoleonic campaigns? If the Highland unit of 'Emigrant Canada' was levied there, it obviously was not stationed there. Still, would the arms issued be somehow kept separately accountable in inventory context? This is one of the great fascinations of studying these swords...what stories of their working lives can be revealed as we look into the clues?

11th May 2015, 02:14 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Another outstanding sword! Most interesting that the indeed old question of the SH running wolf (fox) on these Harvey blades comes up. This discussion has gone on for many years now, and interesting situation that there were three Samuel Harvey's, senior b. 1698; his son Jr. and grandson III. The grandson died in 1810. I had actually never heard of a Joseph, so curious as to where he would fall into the range of this dynasty. It seems there was no particular chronology or documented evidence of these marks used by the Harvey's at a particular time. I recall having one of the horsemans swords with HARVEY in blocks letters across the forte many years ago. Some blades are marked S HARVEY without the fox; on a slotted guard hilt c. 1780 the blade is stamped H/VEY below a crown. One of these swords in Neumann (19.S) has a blade c.1750-68 with this same fox and letter H only. This seems the correct period for this blade which as indicated post dates the hilt. I have always wondered what prompted the Harvey's to adopt the well known 'running wolf' of the expatriate Solingen smiths in England from Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, and when this occurred. It is curious as these were not used exclusively in either of these German 'arrangements', and the use of the mark in Solingen had expired during these times as well. As far as I know no other English maker ever used the 'fox', and the inclination of its use seems inconsistent with the Harvey's. It seems Eljay had come up with similar findings some years ago.