Basket hilted swords

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th April 2015, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys,

With the mention of the Mary Rose sword I thought I would post the information I have on that sword and the Thames sword, which I don’t think gets as much attention. The earliest sword in my collection dated by the Baron of Earlshall 1550-60, and whilst I have posted this one previously I will re-post as I now have better photos.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Salaams Cathey, It must be rather strange since the Basket Hilt is virtually a Scottish Icon and along comes The Mary Rose and a total Eclipse occurs... I suppose the weapon could have joined the ship with its owner from European regions(or even from Scotland!!) ...Well if ..(as they say) ...only they could talk? ! Thank you for the details.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Cathey · 25th April 2015, 07:19 AM

Hi Ibrahiim,

I suspect the Basket hilt in its simplest form did originate in England, although given that mercenary’s etc travelled all over Britain they may well have been in use by the Scott’s and the Irish at the same time. As you say I doubt we will ever truly put the question to bed. The large spiracle pommels often found on these early swords certainly appear to be linked with English manufacture of the time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Mark Deyer · 26th April 2015, 01:59 PM

Here are some more image s

Mark Deyer · 26th April 2015, 02:59 PM

Hi,
Some more. the apparent indent in the blade is the white sheet overlapping the blade not a wornpiece/missing part.
Mark

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2015, 01:33 AM

Thank you for posting this great example again. In the spirit of those here who enjoy observing various aspects of these examples and viewing these as 'clues' as to the possible 'history' they may hold, I wanted to add some thoughts.

As discussed, the hilt of this sword is 'of the type' referred to in fig. 7 of A,Darling (1974, p.86) considered a 'half basket' and indeed it is noted the form is commonly associated with the 'Inniskilling dragoons'.

What is most interesting here are the English style 'bun' pommel, which also seems consistent with English dragoon hilts mid 18th, while in place of the downturned quillon seen on some of these...the guard has a widened turned down extension which resembles those seen on earlier Scottish basket hilts (beginning of 18th, per Whitelaw).

Though these hilts are often associated with the Inniskillings, it is not clear at which period this might have been, nor that this was a hard and fast association. Certainly these swords did not follow 'patterns' in these times.
It might be argued however, that if the crudely inscribed numbers on the hilt were indeed '1751' rather than 1731.....that date is significant because in that year , 1751, the regiment was 'officially' designated 'Inniskillings'.
Prior to that they were known as Cunninghams Dragoons or 'Black Dragoons' etc.
It would be of course tenuous to suggest that this date would be inscribed in this manner, but it is worthy of note.
Naturally the 60 may have any numbers of purposes, most obvious an inventory or rack related number.

On the guard, the curious punctions as dots in linear fashion to me recall the 'paternosters' seen occasionally on swords of earlier times. The other device or mark is unclear but it would interesting to discover its relation to such a religious or talismanic type arrangement. Again, this speculation is simply suggested as a possible solution.

These are just notes I would observe, and hope some out there might find them worthy of discussion.

E.B. Erickson · 29th April 2015, 02:34 PM

First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller!

Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description.

cornelistromp · 29th April 2015, 03:14 PM

yes I can confirm in all probability a possible Dutch origin for those basket hilted swords.
I have sold this sword from my collection through eBay, the sword came from the Henk Visser collection, a well known collector of Dutch arms. btw the pommel is fine.

the hilt of the Pictures page (Dutch swords) posted at eBay are all found in Dutch soil.
they may of course have been coming from Germany but it is also quite possible that they are (partly) made in Netherlands.if I remember correctly, there was a sword in the Visser collection with the same basket hilt as #51 #52(+ Higgins) with a Dutch name on the blade "Hans Adam" published by JP Puype in the Visser collection.

I have had some discussions with the writer of the above Book, Dutch weapon specialist, arms and armour writer/authority and former curator of different Museums JP Puype about the possible Dutch origin of those basket hilts.

see also the DUTCH basket hilts post #3 #4 #24 with the same basket in.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18811
best,

Cathey · 30th April 2015, 05:20 AM

Thank you Mark for re-posting your sword, the variety of markings is most interesting. I have never seen punch marks like this before. I do have a sword where previous engraving has been obscured by punch marks, but nothing quite like this.

The sword I refer to is:
Brass hilted Highland Officer’s Basket Hilt
Date: Pattern 1798
Nationality: British – Scottish Regiment
Overall Length: 94.8 cm (37.3 inches)
Blade length: 80.6 cm (31.7 inches)
Blade widest point: 2.985 cm (1.2 inches)
Hilt widest point: 13.4 cm (5.3 inches)
Inside grip length: 10.3 cm (4.1 inches)
Marks, etc: Marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The stars appear to have been applied to strike out other letters. These letters look like R.I.I.J.I.R?

Description
1798 Pattern Highland infantry officer's backsword; the type carried by Scottish infantry regiments during the Peninsula War and Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon's forces. The single fullered blade is marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The hilt is brass hilt is constructed of solid plain panels and has remnants of past gilding. The grip is fish skin with brass wire.

General Remarks
The 1798 Pattern was the first attempt by the British to standardize sword patterns for the Scottish regiments and was very loose in some respects, with blades coming from Solingen (Prussia / Germany), England and Scotland, clearly with officers mounting the blades from their existing pre-pattern swords. The brass hilt is fundamentally weaker than steel hilts, hence the pattern is rare as the hilts suffered terribly over time.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd May 2015, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

yes I can confirm in all probability a possible Dutch origin for those basket hilted swords.
I have sold this sword from my collection through eBay, the sword came from the Henk Visser collection, a well known collector of Dutch arms. btw the pommel is fine.

the hilt of the Pictures page (Dutch swords) posted at eBay are all found in Dutch soil.
they may of course have been coming from Germany but it is also quite possible that they are (partly) made in Netherlands.if I remember correctly, there was a sword in the Visser collection with the same basket hilt as #51 #52(+ Higgins) with a Dutch name on the blade "Hans Adam" published by JP Puype in the Visser collection.

I have had some discussions with the writer of the above Book, Dutch weapon specialist, arms and armour writer/authority and former curator of different Museums JP Puype about the possible Dutch origin of those basket hilts.

see also the DUTCH basket hilts post #3 #4 #24 with the same basket in.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18811
best,

Salaams Cornelistromp, Great illustrations and what a learning curve this subject is... However...I understand that the Fleur de Lys shape ~on the basket, is in fact, a set of horns... and was associated with the Scottish style. How then is it Dutch? Though of course your note about it being partly Dutch is understood... Perhaps the horns were added in Scotland?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ulfberth · 9th May 2015, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller!

Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description.

From the National Museum Copenhagen Denmark, Danish, Dutch , north European ?
Kind regards
Ulfberth

Cathey · 10th May 2015, 09:26 AM

Hi Guys

As I mentioned, Rex and I went to Melbourne for an Arms and Armour Auction last weekend. Apart from a number of nice Georgian swords I had targeted an early Basket hilt which I was fortunate enough to secure. The hilt is reasonably early, probably around 1707, however the blade marked with a Fox with a H over the forelegs is probably latter.

This brings me back to the old question which Harvey used just the H over the forelegs on the familiar fox marking. I have seen plenty with SH for Samuel Harvey and have begun to wonder it the absence of the S represents an earlier Harvey such as Joseph.

Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword
Date: Hilt Circa 1707, blade may be latter
Maker/Retailer: Blade made by Harvey
Overall Length: 39 1/4” 99.7 cm fuller 24 3/8” 62 cm
Blade length: 33” 84 cm
Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.7 cm
Hilt widest point: 4 ½” 11.2 cm
Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.7 cm
Marks, etc.: Stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs.

Description
Glasgow hilt with Cone shaped Pommel, Shields and Guards have bracket cut with central lobes to the edge, Shield and Guard piercings include darts mounted by two circles, other circles and engraved lines. The two shields are pierced by a central star of four points, surrounded by darts mounted by two circles. There is no wrist guard or horseman’s ring. The grip is wood with brass wire. The backsword blade is stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs.

General Remarks
No Horseman’s ring in the guard

References:
MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp102 F5c, 109 F13b, 113 F15

Cheers Cathey and Rex

29th April 2015, 02:34 PM	#6
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	First, glad to see photos of the blade on Mark's sword, even though it negated my prediction that it would have a narrow and wide fuller! Second, please see the attached photos.This went through eBay several years ago, and was advertised as being a Dutch baskethilt. Can any of you that have access to European museums verify this? The pommel does not appear to be original. The photos of a page from a book were included as aprt of the auction description. Attached Images

29th April 2015, 03:14 PM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	yes I can confirm in all probability a possible Dutch origin for those basket hilted swords. I have sold this sword from my collection through eBay, the sword came from the Henk Visser collection, a well known collector of Dutch arms. btw the pommel is fine. the hilt of the Pictures page (Dutch swords) posted at eBay are all found in Dutch soil. they may of course have been coming from Germany but it is also quite possible that they are (partly) made in Netherlands.if I remember correctly, there was a sword in the Visser collection with the same basket hilt as #51 #52(+ Higgins) with a Dutch name on the blade "Hans Adam" published by JP Puype in the Visser collection. I have had some discussions with the writer of the above Book, Dutch weapon specialist, arms and armour writer/authority and former curator of different Museums JP Puype about the possible Dutch origin of those basket hilts. see also the DUTCH basket hilts post #3 #4 #24 with the same basket in. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18811 best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 29th April 2015 at 06:37 PM.

30th April 2015, 05:20 AM	#8
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Brass hilted Basket Hilt Backsword Thank you Mark for re-posting your sword, the variety of markings is most interesting. I have never seen punch marks like this before. I do have a sword where previous engraving has been obscured by punch marks, but nothing quite like this. The sword I refer to is: Brass hilted Highland Officer’s Basket Hilt Date: Pattern 1798 Nationality: British – Scottish Regiment Overall Length: 94.8 cm (37.3 inches) Blade length: 80.6 cm (31.7 inches) Blade widest point: 2.985 cm (1.2 inches) Hilt widest point: 13.4 cm (5.3 inches) Inside grip length: 10.3 cm (4.1 inches) Marks, etc: Marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The stars appear to have been applied to strike out other letters. These letters look like R.I.I.J.I.R? Description 1798 Pattern Highland infantry officer's backsword; the type carried by Scottish infantry regiments during the Peninsula War and Battle of Waterloo against Napoleon's forces. The single fullered blade is marked with a crown GR DRURY, stamped near the hilt are the letters EC with 6 small stars. The hilt is brass hilt is constructed of solid plain panels and has remnants of past gilding. The grip is fish skin with brass wire. General Remarks The 1798 Pattern was the first attempt by the British to standardize sword patterns for the Scottish regiments and was very loose in some respects, with blades coming from Solingen (Prussia / Germany), England and Scotland, clearly with officers mounting the blades from their existing pre-pattern swords. The brass hilt is fundamentally weaker than steel hilts, hence the pattern is rare as the hilts suffered terribly over time. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

10th May 2015, 09:26 AM	#11
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword Hi Guys As I mentioned, Rex and I went to Melbourne for an Arms and Armour Auction last weekend. Apart from a number of nice Georgian swords I had targeted an early Basket hilt which I was fortunate enough to secure. The hilt is reasonably early, probably around 1707, however the blade marked with a Fox with a H over the forelegs is probably latter. This brings me back to the old question which Harvey used just the H over the forelegs on the familiar fox marking. I have seen plenty with SH for Samuel Harvey and have begun to wonder it the absence of the S represents an earlier Harvey such as Joseph. Glasgow Scottish Basket Hilted Backsword Date: Hilt Circa 1707, blade may be latter Maker/Retailer: Blade made by Harvey Overall Length: 39 1/4” 99.7 cm fuller 24 3/8” 62 cm Blade length: 33” 84 cm Blade widest point: 1 ½” 3.7 cm Hilt widest point: 4 ½” 11.2 cm Inside grip length: 4 ¼” 10.7 cm Marks, etc.: Stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs. Description Glasgow hilt with Cone shaped Pommel, Shields and Guards have bracket cut with central lobes to the edge, Shield and Guard piercings include darts mounted by two circles, other circles and engraved lines. The two shields are pierced by a central star of four points, surrounded by darts mounted by two circles. There is no wrist guard or horseman’s ring. The grip is wood with brass wire. The backsword blade is stamped with a fox with H over the forelegs. General Remarks No Horseman’s ring in the guard References: MAZANSKY (C.) BRITISH BASKET-HILTED SWORDS: A TYPOLOGY OF BASKET-TYPE SWORD HILTS pp102 F5c, 109 F13b, 113 F15 Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

25th April 2015, 07:19 AM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Origins of the Basket hilt Hi Ibrahiim, I suspect the Basket hilt in its simplest form did originate in England, although given that mercenary’s etc travelled all over Britain they may well have been in use by the Scott’s and the Irish at the same time. As you say I doubt we will ever truly put the question to bed. The large spiracle pommels often found on these early swords certainly appear to be linked with English manufacture of the time. Cheers Cathey and Rex

26th April 2015, 01:59 PM	#3
Mark Deyer Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 5	Here are some more image s Attached Images

26th April 2015, 02:59 PM	#4
Mark Deyer Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 5	Hi, Some more. the apparent indent in the blade is the white sheet overlapping the blade not a wornpiece/missing part. Mark Attached Images

27th April 2015, 01:33 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you for posting this great example again. In the spirit of those here who enjoy observing various aspects of these examples and viewing these as 'clues' as to the possible 'history' they may hold, I wanted to add some thoughts. As discussed, the hilt of this sword is 'of the type' referred to in fig. 7 of A,Darling (1974, p.86) considered a 'half basket' and indeed it is noted the form is commonly associated with the 'Inniskilling dragoons'. What is most interesting here are the English style 'bun' pommel, which also seems consistent with English dragoon hilts mid 18th, while in place of the downturned quillon seen on some of these...the guard has a widened turned down extension which resembles those seen on earlier Scottish basket hilts (beginning of 18th, per Whitelaw). Though these hilts are often associated with the Inniskillings, it is not clear at which period this might have been, nor that this was a hard and fast association. Certainly these swords did not follow 'patterns' in these times. It might be argued however, that if the crudely inscribed numbers on the hilt were indeed '1751' rather than 1731.....that date is significant because in that year , 1751, the regiment was 'officially' designated 'Inniskillings'. Prior to that they were known as Cunninghams Dragoons or 'Black Dragoons' etc. It would be of course tenuous to suggest that this date would be inscribed in this manner, but it is worthy of note. Naturally the 60 may have any numbers of purposes, most obvious an inventory or rack related number. On the guard, the curious punctions as dots in linear fashion to me recall the 'paternosters' seen occasionally on swords of earlier times. The other device or mark is unclear but it would interesting to discover its relation to such a religious or talismanic type arrangement. Again, this speculation is simply suggested as a possible solution. These are just notes I would observe, and hope some out there might find them worthy of discussion.