Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades

fernando · 22nd April 2015, 07:58 PM

Welcome to the forum, peserey

.
Very nice old shashka with suggestive marks.
It will be interesting to know what the members say about them.

peserey · 22nd April 2015, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Welcome to the forum, peserey

.
Very nice old shashka with suggestive marks.
It will be interesting to know what the members say about them.

Thank you . yes I am also very curious.

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2015, 04:25 AM

Peserey, thank you so much for joining us here, and for sharing this wonderful old shashka of your family.

This appears to be a Caucasian shashka of most likely 1890s into early 1900s which is mounted with a Solingen trade blade. It is hard to say for certain as this 'cosmological' arrangement with moon and stars seems copied from some of the motif associated with the Schimmelbusch family. Their markings did not typically have the moon, but various astral symbols with stars in three's. The shape on these correspond to much older Solingen symbols often termed 'cogwheels' but are usually seen as stars.

While Caucasian makers often produced their own blades, typically in Chechnya and copying European marks, the ones on your blade suggest it s a German blade rather than Caucasian.

peserey · 27th April 2015, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Peserey, thank you so much for joining us here, and for sharing this wonderful old shashka of your family.

This appears to be a Caucasian shashka of most likely 1890s into early 1900s which is mounted with a Solingen trade blade. It is hard to say for certain as this 'cosmological' arrangement with moon and stars seems copied from some of the motif associated with the Schimmelbusch family. Their markings did not typically have the moon, but various astral symbols with stars in three's. The shape on these correspond to much older Solingen symbols often termed 'cogwheels' but are usually seen as stars.

While Caucasian makers often produced their own blades, typically in Chechnya and copying European marks, the ones on your blade suggest it s a German blade rather than Caucasian.

Thank you. We have our family migrated from the Caucasus in the years 1780-1790. this sword came along with them.

kronckew · 27th July 2015, 10:29 AM

'nother set of paired crescents, on a takouba

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2015, 10:21 PM

Thank you for entering this here Kronckew!
This is certainly an interesting perspective on the mystery of the 'dukari' which are of course the paired crescents found mostly on Saharan takouba.

What is unique here, in an apparently quite modern example of the traditional form takouba, is that these curious 'P' marks in semi arc are paired back to back in the same configuration and location at fuller terminals, as the typical crescents known as dukari.

These paired crescents, which seem to invariably occur on takouba blades (some kaskara as well) have many possibilities as to their original meaning or purpose. However, it would seem the most probable was some sort of magical or talismanic imbuement, as has been suggested by various writers on these Saharan tribes.

Though this example is clearly quite modern, the tradition seems to be applied here by interpolation of this letter and arc symbol, which could be connected to any number of meanings. I have seen this on another blade, and Im sure that Iain will have as well.

Interesting!!! and hopefully we might find other examples or suggestions on these markings.

ulfberth · 1st August 2016, 01:19 PM

Hi All,

so far the earliest version of crescent moon stamps I found was in Hermann Historica auction 71 Lot Nr. 3065 and in this case it was described as a blade of the Munich bladesmith Diefstetter :

"A Swiss hand-and-a-half sword, circa 1570
Long, double-edged blade, each side with a short fuller, the obverse side with a stylised wolf with remnants of brass inlays. Each side of the ricasso with a crescent moon mark of Munich bladesmith Diefstetter"

kind regards

27th July 2015, 10:29 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	'nother set of paired crescents, on a takouba Attached Images

1st August 2016, 01:19 PM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	Hi All, so far the earliest version of crescent moon stamps I found was in Hermann Historica auction 71 Lot Nr. 3065 and in this case it was described as a blade of the Munich bladesmith Diefstetter : "A Swiss hand-and-a-half sword, circa 1570 Long, double-edged blade, each side with a short fuller, the obverse side with a stylised wolf with remnants of brass inlays. Each side of the ricasso with a crescent moon mark of Munich bladesmith Diefstetter" kind regards Attached Images

22nd April 2015, 07:58 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, peserey . Very nice old shashka with suggestive marks. It will be interesting to know what the members say about them.

27th April 2015, 04:25 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Peserey, thank you so much for joining us here, and for sharing this wonderful old shashka of your family. This appears to be a Caucasian shashka of most likely 1890s into early 1900s which is mounted with a Solingen trade blade. It is hard to say for certain as this 'cosmological' arrangement with moon and stars seems copied from some of the motif associated with the Schimmelbusch family. Their markings did not typically have the moon, but various astral symbols with stars in three's. The shape on these correspond to much older Solingen symbols often termed 'cogwheels' but are usually seen as stars. While Caucasian makers often produced their own blades, typically in Chechnya and copying European marks, the ones on your blade suggest it s a German blade rather than Caucasian.

27th July 2015, 10:21 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you for entering this here Kronckew! This is certainly an interesting perspective on the mystery of the 'dukari' which are of course the paired crescents found mostly on Saharan takouba. What is unique here, in an apparently quite modern example of the traditional form takouba, is that these curious 'P' marks in semi arc are paired back to back in the same configuration and location at fuller terminals, as the typical crescents known as dukari. These paired crescents, which seem to invariably occur on takouba blades (some kaskara as well) have many possibilities as to their original meaning or purpose. However, it would seem the most probable was some sort of magical or talismanic imbuement, as has been suggested by various writers on these Saharan tribes. Though this example is clearly quite modern, the tradition seems to be applied here by interpolation of this letter and arc symbol, which could be connected to any number of meanings. I have seen this on another blade, and Im sure that Iain will have as well. Interesting!!! and hopefully we might find other examples or suggestions on these markings.