Basket hilted swords

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All...As a footnote to the above post please note that in the 30 years war in which Stettin was won by the Swedish Empire; Solingen was under extreme pressure and the net result (including the destruction of the city) insofar as sword transmission was the migration to Shotley Bridge of some of the great Sword Makers of Solingen..

It may not be against the laws of possibility that German Swords were taken back to Scotland by the Mercenaries at Stettin. Not with standing the considerable effect of the Sinclair situation..and that of the Walloon Sword and its influence please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basket-hilted_sword not to mention Andrew Ferrera ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent posts Ibrahiim, and thank you for the great illustrations on some of the circumstances which were likely the source for the development of the basket hilt sword in Scotland. Indeed these North European short, heavy sabres many of which were 'dusagge' form had distinctively notable enclosed guards compellingly of such form. As always, the issue is often debated however these origins are most generally held.

Good points on the hilt elements which look like fluer de lis, but as noted by Mazansky, these are in his view actually representations of a rams head. In the case of the 'S' shaped element in hilt construction, I'm not sure if Mazansky made the distinction noting the significance of the 'S' (as possibly to Sterling; Scotland or such key words) but I know it has been noted in many cases with other authors on Scottish arms.

The Solingen phenomenon is probably one of the foremost subtopics in the study of European swords, naturally blades, and indeed this industrial 'machine' became dominant in their production. While the Hounslow and Shotley Bridge situations were indeed key in English swords from mid 17th into early 18th century, the emigration of Solingen makers was also well known into the Netherlands, France, Russia and of course Spain.

In the study of Scottish basket hilted swords, the fact that their blades are invariably of German production, or in some cases appearing to be so, these are the kinds of investigations which help us understand better the dynamics of these most important weapons.

The beginning of this thread by Cathey was remarkably well placed and offered great opportunities to see excellent examples of these swords from her own collection as well as other important holdings. While the unfortunate disruption may have discouraged her continued participation here, which I hope is not the case, I do hope we can continue gainful discussion to learn more on these weapons.

[Cathey]

Scottish Blade with numerous armourers marks!

Hi Jim, did you miss the sword I just posted #106. I put this up deliberately for those that get excited about sword blades and armourers marks as this one is covered in them. The last one I am still yet to identify.

The Irish sword comment is clearly explained by:

OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR
“by the last years of the sixteenth century, these basket hilts had begun to become associated with the Highland Scots and the Irish. This was probably because many of the Highland Chiefs had holdings in Ulster, and in the Irish wars of Queen Elizabeth’s time there were many Highland mercenaries in Ireland. Whatever the reason, these hilts became known as ‘Irish hilts’ in the early years of the seventeenth century.”

Surely someone there has a comment on the last marking I posted; I will repost all of the pictures now.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[E.B. Erickson]

This is a follow up post to the German basket from the last half of the 1500s that I submitted earlier. Most of these basket types that I've seen have a conical pommel, but here's one with a round pommel. The sword was/is in the Higgins Armoury collection, and there doesn't appear to be any info online; just these two photos. The description listed the sword as a baskethilted rapier.

--ElJay

[fernando]

A fellow collector has this one, with a brass hilt.
The pictures are very bad but, if i recall the last time i handled it, it has the inscription Andrea Ferara interspersed with Kings heads.
Do you Gentlemen think this is a genuine period example ?

.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Cathey!!
Thank you so much! It is great to continue examining these fascinating examples of these wonderful swords, and the secrets they hold .
As one of those who is hopelessly obsessed with blades and markings your example in #106 is definitely an exciting array of these. The brass inlay (latten) is a distinct indicator of earlier (17th c. or earlier) blade markings and of course in the group is the 'running wolf'. The other mark is a version of the 'anchor' device popular in Spain an adopted by Solingen makers . It is of course widely speculated as to whether these had distinct meanings or whether simply a favored flourish to enhance inscriptions or motif. As with most blade markings or decoration there is wide variation probably aligned with the artisans used by certain makers and periods.

The other marks are yet undetermined but seem to correspond to other occult/magical or astrological symbols often favored by makers as allusion to imbuement and/or quality in their blades in these times.

Thank you for the additional clarification on the 'Irish' appellation on the hilts. It seems Claude Blair offered a detailed analysis in his work on basket hilts in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications"ed. David Caldwell) as well.

Eljay, thank you for this interesting example. I always wonder as well on the occurrence of these spherical hilts, which often seem entirely incongruent with certain set styles. I once had one of the British dragoon basket hilts (a huge blade of 40") similar to the one Robson suggested to be a M1788 heavy cavalry officers, and instead of the typical urn type pommel it had a distinct sphere.
Since pommels were I believe often piece work obtained by hilt makers at times, I was wondering if perhaps this might have accounted for these kinds of anomalies.

Fernando,
Nice example!! I think it is certainly 18th century and the blade earlier probably. The 'kings head' (konigskopf) was typically associated with the Wundes famiy of Solingen, and its pairing with the ANDREA FERARA name clearly indicates that 'name' as being used as more of a 'brand' in these blades.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by E.B. Erickson

This is a follow up post to the German basket from the last half of the 1500s that I submitted earlier. Most of these basket types that I've seen have a conical pommel, but here's one with a round pommel. The sword was/is in the Higgins Armoury collection, and there doesn't appear to be any info online; just these two photos. The description listed the sword as a baskethilted rapier.

--ElJay

it is Higgins (old) inv nr 1979.04.06

[Cathey]

Hi Jasper

Great to see you join the thread, I am always thrilled to see your early swords. Sorry to disappoint you on this one though, I wish it was a rapier blade; the photograph must be misleading as it is a fairly typical back sword blade. With regard to the attribution to Johannes Stam I was going by LENKIEWICZ, Zygmunt S. 1000 SWORD MARKS OF EUROPEAN BLADEMAKERS Pp65, as he pictures the exact same anchor mark which is quite elaborate. However, you are correct this alone is not positive proof of the maker.

I don’t have Albert Weyersberg Solinger schwertschmiede 1926, I do have a publication Geschickte der Klingenindustrie Solingens von Rud Cronau 1885. Sadly for me this publication is in German, however I should persevere as it does cover a range of early marks. Interestingly the one mark it does not include is any version is the Anchor mark. Tell me is Solinger schwertschmiede worth tracking down, I think Amazon have a reprint available, how many pages are there etc.

The mark I would really like to get some idea of if the one attached. Unfortunately this is as clear a picture as we have been able to get and the mark is quite hard to make out. My best guess at this point is a circle on top of a cross, possible just another orb and cross mark.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[cornelistromp]

Hi Cathey,


re: rapier blade
I am definitely not disappointed that it is a backword blade, it is beautiful and also it is more useful here in this basket hilt.
Actually it was the long ricasso that was remarkable for me in a basket hilt, but I have no doubt that this is the original blade.

re: Zygmunt S. Lenkiewicz. 1000marks
This book is like Wikipedia, a collection of marks from various old and new literature. it does not indicate which weapon has the marks and copies blindly faulty assumptions out of other literature.
see illustration p65, the anchor matches but the personal marks of Johannes Stam are missing on your blade, and as is generally believed, the anchor is only a decoration and not a trademark.
In this instance, only the anchor gives too little support to ascribe the blade to Johannes Stam.
It also not clear where the 1612 comes from, according weyersberg Johannes Stam is registered in 1640 as a swordsmith.

Re: Solinger Schwertschiede des 16 und 17 Jahrhunderts und Ihre Erzeugnisse by Weyersberg.
it is a "must have", there are 100pages of the leading sword smiths in Solingen from the 16th and 17th centuries with their different marks.
there is a reprint made in 2012 by Ken Trotman publishing, around Euro20,-



the mark on your blade, the orb on the ricasso, I have seen before.
I hope I will find it again.


best,
Jasper

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent posts Ibrahiim, and thank you for the great illustrations on some of the circumstances which were likely the source for the development of the basket hilt sword in Scotland. Indeed these North European short, heavy sabres many of which were 'dusagge' form had distinctively notable enclosed guards compellingly of such form. As always, the issue is often debated however these origins are most generally held.

Good points on the hilt elements which look like fluer de lis, but as noted by Mazansky, these are in his view actually representations of a rams head. In the case of the 'S' shaped element in hilt construction, I'm not sure if Mazansky made the distinction noting the significance of the 'S' (as possibly to Sterling; Scotland or such key words) but I know it has been noted in many cases with other authors on Scottish arms.

The Solingen phenomenon is probably one of the foremost subtopics in the study of European swords, naturally blades, and indeed this industrial 'machine' became dominant in their production. While the Hounslow and Shotley Bridge situations were indeed key in English swords from mid 17th into early 18th century, the emigration of Solingen makers was also well known into the Netherlands, France, Russia and of course Spain.

In the study of Scottish basket hilted swords, the fact that their blades are invariably of German production, or in some cases appearing to be so, these are the kinds of investigations which help us understand better the dynamics of these most important weapons.

The beginning of this thread by Cathey was remarkably well placed and offered great opportunities to see excellent examples of these swords from her own collection as well as other important holdings. While the unfortunate disruption may have discouraged her continued participation here, which I hope is not the case, I do hope we can continue gainful discussion to learn more on these weapons.

Salaams Jim, I honestly cant remember where I picked up the Mazansky detail...but thanks for the correction...

Salaams Cathey, I can probably assure you that everyone is burrowing into their research notes trying to pull the answer to the blade marks you have published but as I see it...the running Passau Wolf is so similar to about 4 different styles although the closest is possibly the 1597 Peter Munsten at#225 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=blade+marks which I use as the main library thread for all of my references here.

In reference to orbs...#226 shows Johannes Wundes and explains how the Imperial Orb was used in front and after names or slogans and not as a blade mark per se..

I saw some excellent detail on other marks/Passau wolves at #38 and #66 and #44. and when the time comes to discus moon strikes how many sword makers were using the moon; proving that at least it was very commonly used and not the domain of any particular blade maker...and if I can reinforce the idea that the thread is superb and sits stronger together so discussion on blade and hilt may be considered...

With reference to the question Irish Hilts I started looking for Irish Hilt manufacturing centres and other than small producers of specialized natures like the Dublin family firm of Read and Co...nothing pops up whereas commaon sense indicates that British Regiments likely furnished from England..and probably Scotland. The linkage to Highland Mercenaries is a sidebranch stumbled on by pure accident and whilst it possibly changes nothing it seemed to me an interesting excursion..and led me along the road to Stettin and the 30 years war...vital ingredients to any study of this famous sword...and I had no idea they put Sinclairs stuff in a museum close to where he fell..in Norway at Gudbransdalen...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.