Ottoman Bichaq help

Sancar · 6th March 2015, 10:34 AM

I don't know if this blade is from Balkans, Anatolia or Magrip, but when a Ottoman "bıçak" have a slight S curve and generally looks like a miniature yatağan(though most later examples are not this nice), it is usually called "saldırma" or attack(knife) in Turkish terminology.

As you can deduce from the name, it is a fighting knife. Hoodlams and criminals usually hide these knives under their jackets, tucked in under their arms. It was popularized in 19th century, after desolution of janissary corps and there is a theory that first versions of these knives were cut down yatağans(to carry it easier hidden). These blades reamined popular between criminals and gangsters in Turkey until early 60s. And it is still listed as an illegal weapon by Turkish criminal law.

Battara · 7th March 2015, 12:44 AM

Caber and others, thank you for your posting examples of what you are discussing.

We are aware of the openness of the Ottoman empire and that there was a lot of influence and style mixing, like the use of coral gemstones all over the empire, from Algeria to Bosnia. Yet there are local influences. I guess I have never noticed those from Algeria......

estcrh · 7th March 2015, 05:17 AM

Here are a few examples of repeated characteristics that are supposedly associated with North African hilts and a quote from Artzi.

Quote:

This rare form of Yataghan, with the lobed pommel is usually identified as North African, probably Algeria. In addition, most of these Yataghans will come with rhino horn hilt grips.

Kubur · 7th March 2015, 08:36 AM

Some people think that this type of Yataghan with small curved ears are from Algeria. To be honest I don't know why...
It's like the Pala without guard, they are supposed to be Algerians.
I just post one of my flyssa daggers, you see the design of the scabbard and the blade are Algerian, but the general look of the dagger is like a bichaq.
Check this one also
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11699
Some people call these daggers flyssa others bichaq...
It is a complicated issue on this forum, should we use generic names or local names to define these objects????
For example, i think that an Omani sword is not a sayf but a kattara, despite all the discussions on this forum. Because when you say a kattara you know exactly where it comes from...

Martin Lubojacky · 7th March 2015, 11:23 AM

"Some people think that this type of Yataghan with small curved ears are from Algeria. To be honest I don't know why...
It's like the Pala without guard, they are supposed to be Algerians."

Dear Kubur,

I think this is becausoe of the fact, that you can find "predominantly" one (or a few major) type of fittings in the certain country (territory). E.g. if you are in Tunnisia, you will notice, that "local yathagans" ´handles are usually without ears and scabbards are often wholy brass plated with local motives engraved. On the opposite site I guess you can confirm, that T form of the termination of the handles of the (so called) "zeybeks" yathagans occures in central Anatolya very often (and you will not find it in Libya etc.) I am of the opinion that adornment used to be often done in the local place (e.g. including coftgari) despite the fact that thle blade style and/or trade mark occurs in much wider territoty. - So that´s why
Best
Martin

Kubur · 8th March 2015, 11:20 AM

Dear Martin,

I agree with the blades for knifes and swords.
It is also the case with the locks and barrels for pistols and long guns.
But I think that the grips for swords and daggers or the wooden stocks for guns are locals. Unlike the decorations or the scabbards as you said.

For North Africa, a good book for all:
Gold and Coral. Presentation arms from Algiers and Tunis

Best,
Kubur

Battara · 9th March 2015, 01:45 AM

Unfortunately this book does not show up on Amazon........

estcrh · 9th March 2015, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Some people think that this type of Yataghan with small curved ears are from Algeria. To be honest I don't know why...
It's like the Pala without guard, they are supposed to be Algerians.

Any proof that the pala without guards are Algerian or is that just an accepted belief?

Battara · 11th March 2015, 12:01 AM

Estcrh, I think it would be a better idea to post your great question in it's own thread. This deserves it's own thread for others to chime in.......(I'd like to know myself -

).

7th March 2015, 08:36 AM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Some people think that this type of Yataghan with small curved ears are from Algeria. To be honest I don't know why... It's like the Pala without guard, they are supposed to be Algerians. I just post one of my flyssa daggers, you see the design of the scabbard and the blade are Algerian, but the general look of the dagger is like a bichaq. Check this one also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11699 Some people call these daggers flyssa others bichaq... It is a complicated issue on this forum, should we use generic names or local names to define these objects???? For example, i think that an Omani sword is not a sayf but a kattara, despite all the discussions on this forum. Because when you say a kattara you know exactly where it comes from... Attached Images

6th March 2015, 10:34 AM	#1
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	I don't know if this blade is from Balkans, Anatolia or Magrip, but when a Ottoman "bıçak" have a slight S curve and generally looks like a miniature yatağan(though most later examples are not this nice), it is usually called "saldırma" or attack(knife) in Turkish terminology. As you can deduce from the name, it is a fighting knife. Hoodlams and criminals usually hide these knives under their jackets, tucked in under their arms. It was popularized in 19th century, after desolution of janissary corps and there is a theory that first versions of these knives were cut down yatağans(to carry it easier hidden). These blades reamined popular between criminals and gangsters in Turkey until early 60s. And it is still listed as an illegal weapon by Turkish criminal law.

7th March 2015, 12:44 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Caber and others, thank you for your posting examples of what you are discussing. We are aware of the openness of the Ottoman empire and that there was a lot of influence and style mixing, like the use of coral gemstones all over the empire, from Algeria to Bosnia. Yet there are local influences. I guess I have never noticed those from Algeria......

7th March 2015, 11:23 AM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	"Some people think that this type of Yataghan with small curved ears are from Algeria. To be honest I don't know why... It's like the Pala without guard, they are supposed to be Algerians." Dear Kubur, I think this is becausoe of the fact, that you can find "predominantly" one (or a few major) type of fittings in the certain country (territory). E.g. if you are in Tunnisia, you will notice, that "local yathagans" ´handles are usually without ears and scabbards are often wholy brass plated with local motives engraved. On the opposite site I guess you can confirm, that T form of the termination of the handles of the (so called) "zeybeks" yathagans occures in central Anatolya very often (and you will not find it in Libya etc.) I am of the opinion that adornment used to be often done in the local place (e.g. including coftgari) despite the fact that thle blade style and/or trade mark occurs in much wider territoty. - So that´s why Best Martin

8th March 2015, 11:20 AM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Dear Martin, I agree with the blades for knifes and swords. It is also the case with the locks and barrels for pistols and long guns. But I think that the grips for swords and daggers or the wooden stocks for guns are locals. Unlike the decorations or the scabbards as you said. For North Africa, a good book for all: Gold and Coral. Presentation arms from Algiers and Tunis Best, Kubur

9th March 2015, 01:45 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Unfortunately this book does not show up on Amazon........

11th March 2015, 12:01 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Estcrh, I think it would be a better idea to post your great question in it's own thread. This deserves it's own thread for others to chime in.......(I'd like to know myself - ).