Moro Tulip Kris (need Arabic/Jawi translation please)

Spunjer · 29th January 2015, 06:43 PM

interesting kris! i always associate those pommels as more of a phallic symbol that tulips, lol. i've seen wood, but not ivory. also, i would say that it's older that what you credit it for, jose. turn of the century, at least... nice catch on this one!

regarding the inlay:
can't help you with the Jawi part, but on the western script side, i believe it's a name. if i'm not mistaken, it says: "property of Ron, please return promptly if found". i kid, lol...
seriously, i think it says "J.T. Van Orsdale". J.T., or John Timothy Van Orsdale served under General Woods in Cotabato from 1903 to 1904. he was a colonel, and in charged of the 17th Infantry. after doing his tour, he stayed for another year in Zamboanga. he left mindanao in 1905, and i believe he went to Cuba after that. so going back to the age of this kris, if it's indeed his going away present, that would place this piece around the turn of the century.
another thing; seems to be a common practice back in the day to give a high ranking officer a kris when they leave Mindanao. a similar practice today would be something like this but rather than putting the officer's name on the blade, it's engraved on a plaque. there was another piece that has a name inlayed on it; from Reina Regente i think. i believe it was Ian's piece?
hope this helps

Gustav · 29th January 2015, 06:54 PM

A fantastic provenance. And one more kris, which shows pointy luk already near the turn of the century.

David · 29th January 2015, 07:50 PM

Col. J.T. Van Orsdale circa 1906. He died in 1921.

CharlesS · 29th January 2015, 08:34 PM

Another really fine example Jose, and excellent work on your part. I tend to agree with Ron about the age and think it's at least a little older than you think.

Was there any particular reason you dated it as you did. Perhaps you have some more provenance on it?

Battara · 29th January 2015, 11:52 PM

Thanks Ron for confirming what I discovered today doing my own research: yes Col. J T Orsdale under Gen. Wood. In fact, in 1904 he led a second expedition on the Rio Grande river in Maguindanao country. Thus you are right, this is around the turn of the century.

I wasn't quite sure of the date since on the one hand it has the a mono-steel blade with sharp luks, but on the other hand it has a distinct separate ganga.

Also according to Oliver Pinchot in an email, the Jawi says, " Datu Fi'cha" (spelling of the name might be a little off). I will now look for information for this Maguindanao datu.

I also thank you David for the picture.

And yes - this does add a wrinkle to the sharp look theory.

Yes I am as pleased as punch!

Battara · 30th January 2015, 02:18 AM

After another close examination of the blade, I have determined that the luks are not as sharp as I thought. Therefore, the sharp luk theory still stands.

I had another Maguindanao sword (which was stolen) and that didn't have any laminations either. It too I dated to the turn of the 20th century. So it fits that this piece is also from the turn of the century as well.

Although I haven't yet found a Datu Fi'cha, he may have been one of the lesser datus under the leadership of the great Datu Piang. This is a theory at present. If anyone can assist me in finding record of a Datu Fi'cha, please let me know here or by email.

Gustav · 30th January 2015, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Therefore, the sharp luk theory still stands.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...aranao+sundang, #39, 40.

Spunjer · 30th January 2015, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Thanks Ron for confirming what I discovered today doing my own research: yes Col. J T Orsdale under Gen. Wood. In fact, in 1904 he led a second expedition on the Rio Grande river in Maguindanao country. Thus you are right, this is around the turn of the century.

I wasn't quite sure of the date since on the one hand it has the a mono-steel blade with sharp luks, but on the other hand it has a distinct separate ganga.

Also according to Oliver Pinchot in an email, the Jawi says, " Datu Fi'cha" (spelling of the name might be a little off). I will now look for information for this Maguindanao datu.

I also thank you David for the picture.

And yes - this does add a wrinkle to the sharp look theory.

Yes I am as pleased as punch!

1) it's J.T. Van Orsdale

2) regarding the Datu's name: i can't see it myself as Fi'cha. for one thing, there's no "F" nor "C" in the Maguindanaon language, so we can go back to perhaps the name was spelled phonetically. long stretch, but it could meant Piang. you could start your research by looking for how Piang wrote his name in Jawi, or even in Arabic script.

3) regarding sharp seko (btw, luks is indo, seko is Moro. literally, it means "elbow"): again, that's the problem with just one book to go by. theories wrote in it becomes hard, fast rule. thanks for the link, Gustav! i don't have to go searching in my archives, lol

4) here's the link from the old forum i was referring to my original response:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001388.html

David · 30th January 2015, 03:57 PM

Thanks Ron. I was writing quickly. The name has been corrected.
On basing our dating sole upon Cato's ideas i wholly agree. Simply because there is only one fairly comprehensive book on the subject doesn't mean that everything in it is correct. I would also put forth that simply because a blade has a separate gangya is not enough to automatically date it before 1930 either. I'm willing to bet that more than a few higher end blades produced even post-war could have separate gangya.

Battara · 6th February 2015, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

2) regarding the Datu's name: i can't see it myself as Fi'cha. for one thing, there's no "F" nor "C" in the Maguindanaon language, so we can go back to perhaps the name was spelled phonetically. long stretch, but it could meant Piang. you could start your research by looking for how Piang wrote his name in Jawi, or even in Arabic script.

AND RON WINS THE PRIZE!

(but not the sword.......

)

Got a final Jawi translation from Oliver (he found an link to Jawi, Oliver also reads Arabic) and he translated the name to "Datu Fiang" which in Maguindanao would be "P"iang (no "f" in Maguindanao as Ron mentioned), which means that this piece says and is from:

DATU PIANG! From him to Van Orsdale.

Now we know both the giver and recipient. We know the story and have documentation of both men.

This makes the 2nd sword I own that once belonged to Datu Piang. I am a very happy camper.

Once again my thanks to you folks, and especially to Oliver Pinchot. I bow in all of your presences!

29th January 2015, 08:34 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Another really fine example Jose, and excellent work on your part. I tend to agree with Ron about the age and think it's at least a little older than you think. Was there any particular reason you dated it as you did. Perhaps you have some more provenance on it? Last edited by CharlesS; 30th January 2015 at 12:37 PM.

29th January 2015, 11:52 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Thanks Ron for confirming what I discovered today doing my own research: yes Col. J T Orsdale under Gen. Wood. In fact, in 1904 he led a second expedition on the Rio Grande river in Maguindanao country. Thus you are right, this is around the turn of the century. I wasn't quite sure of the date since on the one hand it has the a mono-steel blade with sharp luks, but on the other hand it has a distinct separate ganga. Also according to Oliver Pinchot in an email, the Jawi says, " Datu Fi'cha" (spelling of the name might be a little off). I will now look for information for this Maguindanao datu. I also thank you David for the picture. And yes - this does add a wrinkle to the sharp look theory. Yes I am as pleased as punch! Last edited by Battara; 30th January 2015 at 03:38 AM.

30th January 2015, 02:18 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	After another close examination of the blade, I have determined that the luks are not as sharp as I thought. Therefore, the sharp luk theory still stands. I had another Maguindanao sword (which was stolen) and that didn't have any laminations either. It too I dated to the turn of the 20th century. So it fits that this piece is also from the turn of the century as well. Although I haven't yet found a Datu Fi'cha, he may have been one of the lesser datus under the leadership of the great Datu Piang. This is a theory at present. If anyone can assist me in finding record of a Datu Fi'cha, please let me know here or by email. Last edited by Battara; 30th January 2015 at 03:38 AM.

29th January 2015, 06:43 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	interesting kris! i always associate those pommels as more of a phallic symbol that tulips, lol. i've seen wood, but not ivory. also, i would say that it's older that what you credit it for, jose. turn of the century, at least... nice catch on this one! regarding the inlay: can't help you with the Jawi part, but on the western script side, i believe it's a name. if i'm not mistaken, it says: "property of Ron, please return promptly if found". i kid, lol... seriously, i think it says "J.T. Van Orsdale". J.T., or John Timothy Van Orsdale served under General Woods in Cotabato from 1903 to 1904. he was a colonel, and in charged of the 17th Infantry. after doing his tour, he stayed for another year in Zamboanga. he left mindanao in 1905, and i believe he went to Cuba after that. so going back to the age of this kris, if it's indeed his going away present, that would place this piece around the turn of the century. another thing; seems to be a common practice back in the day to give a high ranking officer a kris when they leave Mindanao. a similar practice today would be something like this but rather than putting the officer's name on the blade, it's engraved on a plaque. there was another piece that has a name inlayed on it; from Reina Regente i think. i believe it was Ian's piece? hope this helps

29th January 2015, 06:54 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	A fantastic provenance. And one more kris, which shows pointy luk already near the turn of the century.

29th January 2015, 07:50 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Col. J.T. Van Orsdale circa 1906. He died in 1921. Attached Images Last edited by David; 30th January 2015 at 03:50 PM.

30th January 2015, 03:57 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thanks Ron. I was writing quickly. The name has been corrected. On basing our dating sole upon Cato's ideas i wholly agree. Simply because there is only one fairly comprehensive book on the subject doesn't mean that everything in it is correct. I would also put forth that simply because a blade has a separate gangya is not enough to automatically date it before 1930 either. I'm willing to bet that more than a few higher end blades produced even post-war could have separate gangya.