An Equivocal "Late Gothic" Tiller Haquebut - STEINBÜCHSE - in 15th c. Style

Matchlock · 29th November 2014, 05:34 PM

Some typical Steinbüchsen - not yet showing a hook! - from an illuminated manuscript dated 1411, cod. 3069 in the Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Wien:

- fol. 9v
- fol. 15r
- fol. 16r
- fol. 25v
- fol 45r

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 29th November 2014, 06:05 PM

Steinbüchsen NOT yet equipped with a hook, from 15th c. illuminated manuscripts.

From top:
- Cod. 3069, dat. 1411; Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Wien, fol. 10r
- dito, fol. 40r

and some surviving samples from the museums in Paris, Weißenburg/Bavaria, Hohensalzburg, Nuremberg and Passau, plus two specimens sold at auction withe Hermann Historica, Munich, and Sotheby's N.Y.

Apart from a few huge pieces of artillery, all existing Steinbüchsen are of wrought iron.

For surviving stone throwing guns see author's threads:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=hohensalzburg
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=steinb%FCchse
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=steinb%FCchse
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=steinb%FCchse
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=steinb%FCchse

Marcus den toom · 1st December 2014, 09:17 PM

Just adding some pictures to this thread which i seem to have aquired

Also re-attaching a manuscript illustrations of what might be a Stein Büchse. Not sure though, the breech section is too small, especially when comparing it to the supposed forward section wich held a stone ball.

Marcus den toom · 1st December 2014, 09:18 PM

some more

Marcus den toom · 1st December 2014, 09:20 PM

Voila, le rest.
Also the interior of the barrel (s) seem altered... the octagonal part which might have been joined later on with the round part looks to be shiny in places.

Matchlock · 2nd December 2014, 10:56 AM

Hi Marcus,

Thanks for posting these additional custom made photos.

And a VERY special 'thanks' for posting that source of illustration

- would you please let me know where you found it, and what manuscript it belongs to?

On those images, the surface of the forward section of the gun looks more consistent with the rest, and my doubts have diminished a bit.
Still I feel that the thickness of the barrrel wall at the muzzle is unusually low for a 15th c. piece, and the muzzle is not hevily swamped as would be expected but only shows a small brim. An actual swamping the white-red iron with the hammer would have added to a higher endurance indeed while that brim just folded outward does not ...

Anyway, in my opinion the overall appearance of that gun breaks one too many rules to render it acceptable.

Best,
m

29th November 2014, 05:34 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Some typical Steinbüchsen - not yet showing a hook! - from an illuminated manuscript dated 1411, cod. 3069 in the Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Wien: - fol. 9v - fol. 15r - fol. 16r - fol. 25v - fol 45r Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 29th November 2014 at 06:26 PM.

29th November 2014, 06:05 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Steinbüchsen NOT yet equipped with a hook, from 15th c. illuminated manuscripts. From top: - Cod. 3069, dat. 1411; Österreichische Nationalbibliothek Wien, fol. 10r - dito, fol. 40r and some surviving samples from the museums in Paris, Weißenburg/Bavaria, Hohensalzburg, Nuremberg and Passau, plus two specimens sold at auction withe Hermann Historica, Munich, and Sotheby's N.Y. Apart from a few huge pieces of artillery, all existing Steinbüchsen are of wrought iron. For surviving stone throwing guns see author's threads: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=hohensalzburg http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=steinb%FCchse http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=steinb%FCchse http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=steinb%FCchse http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=steinb%FCchse Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 29th November 2014 at 06:26 PM.

1st December 2014, 09:20 PM	#5
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 541	Voila, le rest. Also the interior of the barrel (s) seem altered... the octagonal part which might have been joined later on with the round part looks to be shiny in places. Last edited by Marcus den toom; 1st December 2014 at 09:31 PM.

2nd December 2014, 10:56 AM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Marcus, Thanks for posting these additional custom made photos. And a VERY special 'thanks' for posting that source of illustration - would you please let me know where you found it, and what manuscript it belongs to? On those images, the surface of the forward section of the gun looks more consistent with the rest, and my doubts have diminished a bit. Still I feel that the thickness of the barrrel wall at the muzzle is unusually low for a 15th c. piece, and the muzzle is not hevily swamped as would be expected but only shows a small brim. An actual swamping the white-red iron with the hammer would have added to a higher endurance indeed while that brim just folded outward does not ... Anyway, in my opinion the overall appearance of that gun breaks one too many rules to render it acceptable. Best, m Last edited by Matchlock; 2nd December 2014 at 11:12 AM.

1st December 2014, 09:17 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 541	Just adding some pictures to this thread which i seem to have aquired Also re-attaching a manuscript illustrations of what might be a Stein Büchse. Not sure though, the breech section is too small, especially when comparing it to the supposed forward section wich held a stone ball.

1st December 2014, 09:18 PM	#4
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 541	some more