Accidental collector - old weapons ID assistance (Yao?)

DaveA · 5th November 2014, 05:13 AM

Another example of the dot-in-circle decoration. This one on a kukri from northern India or possibly Nepal.

By the way, if anyone can suggest a method to repair the missing bone surface you see (maybe it was once covered with a brass device?) I am very interested.

I have seen the dot-in-circle motif on Bou Saada Kodmi from Algeria, a folding lohar from Afghanistan, and a bichaq from Bosnia. I'll wager there are many more examples from all over the world!

Based on the hilt's pommel shape, I'll wager on the Tibet/Burma/Assam region.

Best,

Dave A.

Gavin Nugent · 5th November 2014, 06:37 AM

Thanks Emanuel & Lee.

Here is a round the world trip.

From blade markings in other links about these knives there is this Kaskara with similar blade stamps;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=94044&stc=1

For the Dao looking axes here is a very nice unmarked example with the sale collar;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5759
With this knife type we discuss and that these things have carried similar marks, Ivory, Africa and circles brings me back to Africa, but wait there is more

Although not identical, the deep stamp markings are interesting on the Sudan dagger in post 15 by Lee
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=111

Then I see Jen's post in 10 & 13
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3481
Which is clearly from India

So a short trip around the world, India or Africa...I still feel my bones Africa but British India certainly had the Tooling abilities to turn these out too..

Ponderous

Gavin

Jampot10 · 5th November 2014, 09:35 AM

Pretty sure I've now managed to identify a provenance for these. Many thanks to Ariel who pointed out the direction of British Museum which helped immensely.

Looks like the blades are almost definitely East African - Yao tribe manufactured Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area.

I'll start a new post headed - Yao tribal Knives and put up my reasoning for discussion.

spiral · 5th November 2014, 04:27 PM

Excellent!... to keep some continuity for the thread... Heres the BM link. {Below...}

So Yao or at least "in the style of" knives... Fascinating!

Who would have guessed Malawi! south Africa.

{The continent not the country...} Seems I was miles out with Burma etc....

Spiral

link..

Jens Nordlunde · 5th November 2014, 04:35 PM

My vague guess would have been India.
You should however consider, that India from ancient times had a lot of sea trading from the north of Africa to Madagascar, and maybe even further south. Trading for slaves and ivory - which is said to be stronger than the Indian ivory.
Jens

Sajen · 5th November 2014, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

So Yao or at least "in the style of" knives... Fascinating!

Who would have guessed Malawi! south Africa.

{The continent not the country...} Seems I was miles out with Burma etc....

I am with you Spiral!

Martin Lubojacky · 6th November 2014, 08:57 AM

When it is marked out by such important museum (and motivated by donor´s legends), it is difficult to object. But, in any case, there is something strange in it. Look at another yao knives, which are more conformable to i.g. Shona style. Rivets instead of tongue in that part of Africa ...(?), such collar .... As far as me - the overal shape is more similar to Japanese fishermen boat knives (I knowingly talk a bit; I would vote to Burma or something Central Asian), than to African styles which I met till now. But, the life is neverending study...

I mentioned following story here before, so I apologize: cca 20 years ago I have given my nice knife from Finland to my friend, who was travelling to Ongota tribe in southern Ethiopia. My friend was linguist and he studdied those tribes. Once he was present to the childbirth there and so - he became something like godfather. So I gave him the Finland knife when he was going to visit the willage and to call on the boy after years - since he did not have any suitable gift with him. I hope nobody will donate this Finland knife to any museum as tradditional Ongota knife. I know this differs from the Yao case and I do not want to flout authorities, but, there could be something similar in it ...

Andrew · 6th November 2014, 01:39 PM

In my personal opinion, these are not continental SEA. The general blade profile, fullering and ivory handles are strikingly similar to knives from the region, but the differences are more edifying--the partially exposed tang and bolsters are definitively not correct for that region.

Other than this observation of questionable value, I am clueless as to origin.

Shakethetrees · 5th November 2014, 06:46 PM

[QUOTE]

Another example of the dot-in-circle decoration. This one on a kukri from northern India or possibly Nepal.

By the way, if anyone can suggest a method to repair the missing bone surface you see (maybe it was once covered with a brass device?) I am very interested.
[QUOTE]

There isn't trick or shortcut. A piece of bone has to becut and fit, the circles and brass plugs have to be set just as they were done back when it was made.

spiral · 5th November 2014, 06:51 PM

To add to the confusion most of the Nepali tourist kukri that look like that, even those being sold in Nepal are actually Chinese made fakes... & were even 10 years ago...

spiral

Emanuel · 5th November 2014, 07:21 PM

I am not at all convinced that these knives are make by the Yao, not considering the rest of that material culture. This knife type doesn't fit anything produced natively in East Africa. I am not yet aware of any single-edged knife with this blade, bolster and partial tang construction anywhere in Africa.

This knife type does, fit into North Indian and Central Asian material culture. Considering the large Gujarati Indian Diaspora in East Africa, I can certainly see these knives being sold in Mozambique from an Indian source. I cannot, however, see these as being made by East African smiths, it's not within their style

I would say look carefully at the blade profile and section, the bolster assembly, and the tang connection. Then look into the very peculiar stamps, which appear to be standardized.

Emanuel

Emanuel · 5th November 2014, 08:47 PM

Here are a few more from Oriental-Arms labeled as Afghan or Pakistani.

Emanuel · 5th November 2014, 08:47 PM

Another one...

Emanuel · 5th November 2014, 08:48 PM

And a last one...

Jampot10 · 5th November 2014, 08:57 PM

The identification is based purely on research using the British Museum. I'm relying on their archive accuracy but I find it compelling that they have several separate donors for very similar knives giving the same source location.

Copied from other thread.

I posted these a couple of days ago asking for Id help - thanks to everyone that replied. Ariel suggested checking British Museum and a search of the online archive provided the answers.
My view is that these are East African , Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area and would even go as far as to say they are Yao tribe origin.
I'm fairly confident of the attribution but for those that have time - please check the Britsh Museum online image archive. Dont think I'm allowed to give a link but :

British Museum home page - Collection online - Knife ivory ( in search box) - tick images only - then search. Scroll through the page and there will be at least 5 or 6 knives very similar to the Ivory one with strong attributions.

Perhaps there needs to be some further discussion about this before confirmation.

For those like me that originally suggested the Asian regions , the Yao tribe built up strong links with slave traders throughout the 19th century eventually converting to Islam around turn of 20th century. This might explain why the knives have influences from both cultures - which caused the difficulties in identification.

The items held by the British museum were mostly gifted in the 1920's and 40's. These were from the estates of persons that were in Africa in a colonial capacity at or around the turn of the century.

Please let me know your thoughts ?

5th November 2014, 05:13 AM	#1
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	.. and a kukri with dot pattern Another example of the dot-in-circle decoration. This one on a kukri from northern India or possibly Nepal. By the way, if anyone can suggest a method to repair the missing bone surface you see (maybe it was once covered with a brass device?) I am very interested. I have seen the dot-in-circle motif on Bou Saada Kodmi from Algeria, a folding lohar from Afghanistan, and a bichaq from Bosnia. I'll wager there are many more examples from all over the world! Based on the hilt's pommel shape, I'll wager on the Tibet/Burma/Assam region. Best, Dave A. Attached Images

5th November 2014, 08:47 PM	#12
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Here are a few more from Oriental-Arms labeled as Afghan or Pakistani. Attached Images

5th November 2014, 08:47 PM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Another one... Attached Images

5th November 2014, 08:48 PM	#14
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	And a last one... Attached Images

5th November 2014, 06:37 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Emanuel & Lee. Here is a round the world trip. From blade markings in other links about these knives there is this Kaskara with similar blade stamps; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=94044&stc=1 For the Dao looking axes here is a very nice unmarked example with the sale collar; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5759 With this knife type we discuss and that these things have carried similar marks, Ivory, Africa and circles brings me back to Africa, but wait there is more Although not identical, the deep stamp markings are interesting on the Sudan dagger in post 15 by Lee http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=111 Then I see Jen's post in 10 & 13 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3481 Which is clearly from India So a short trip around the world, India or Africa...I still feel my bones Africa but British India certainly had the Tooling abilities to turn these out too.. Ponderous Gavin

5th November 2014, 09:35 AM	#3
Jampot10 Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 12	Pretty sure I've now managed to identify a provenance for these. Many thanks to Ariel who pointed out the direction of British Museum which helped immensely. Looks like the blades are almost definitely East African - Yao tribe manufactured Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area. I'll start a new post headed - Yao tribal Knives and put up my reasoning for discussion.

5th November 2014, 04:27 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Excellent!... to keep some continuity for the thread... Heres the BM link. {Below...} So Yao or at least "in the style of" knives... Fascinating! Who would have guessed Malawi! south Africa. {The continent not the country...} Seems I was miles out with Burma etc.... Spiral link..

5th November 2014, 04:35 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	My vague guess would have been India. You should however consider, that India from ancient times had a lot of sea trading from the north of Africa to Madagascar, and maybe even further south. Trading for slaves and ivory - which is said to be stronger than the Indian ivory. Jens

6th November 2014, 08:57 AM	#7
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	When it is marked out by such important museum (and motivated by donor´s legends), it is difficult to object. But, in any case, there is something strange in it. Look at another yao knives, which are more conformable to i.g. Shona style. Rivets instead of tongue in that part of Africa ...(?), such collar .... As far as me - the overal shape is more similar to Japanese fishermen boat knives (I knowingly talk a bit; I would vote to Burma or something Central Asian), than to African styles which I met till now. But, the life is neverending study... I mentioned following story here before, so I apologize: cca 20 years ago I have given my nice knife from Finland to my friend, who was travelling to Ongota tribe in southern Ethiopia. My friend was linguist and he studdied those tribes. Once he was present to the childbirth there and so - he became something like godfather. So I gave him the Finland knife when he was going to visit the willage and to call on the boy after years - since he did not have any suitable gift with him. I hope nobody will donate this Finland knife to any museum as tradditional Ongota knife. I know this differs from the Yao case and I do not want to flout authorities, but, there could be something similar in it ...

6th November 2014, 01:39 PM	#8
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	In my personal opinion, these are not continental SEA. The general blade profile, fullering and ivory handles are strikingly similar to knives from the region, but the differences are more edifying--the partially exposed tang and bolsters are definitively not correct for that region. Other than this observation of questionable value, I am clueless as to origin.

5th November 2014, 06:46 PM	#9
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	[QUOTE] Another example of the dot-in-circle decoration. This one on a kukri from northern India or possibly Nepal. By the way, if anyone can suggest a method to repair the missing bone surface you see (maybe it was once covered with a brass device?) I am very interested. [QUOTE] There isn't trick or shortcut. A piece of bone has to becut and fit, the circles and brass plugs have to be set just as they were done back when it was made.

5th November 2014, 06:51 PM	#10
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	To add to the confusion most of the Nepali tourist kukri that look like that, even those being sold in Nepal are actually Chinese made fakes... & were even 10 years ago... spiral

5th November 2014, 07:21 PM	#11
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I am not at all convinced that these knives are make by the Yao, not considering the rest of that material culture. This knife type doesn't fit anything produced natively in East Africa. I am not yet aware of any single-edged knife with this blade, bolster and partial tang construction anywhere in Africa. This knife type does, fit into North Indian and Central Asian material culture. Considering the large Gujarati Indian Diaspora in East Africa, I can certainly see these knives being sold in Mozambique from an Indian source. I cannot, however, see these as being made by East African smiths, it's not within their style I would say look carefully at the blade profile and section, the bolster assembly, and the tang connection. Then look into the very peculiar stamps, which appear to be standardized. Emanuel

5th November 2014, 08:57 PM	#15
Jampot10 Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 12	The identification is based purely on research using the British Museum. I'm relying on their archive accuracy but I find it compelling that they have several separate donors for very similar knives giving the same source location. Copied from other thread. I posted these a couple of days ago asking for Id help - thanks to everyone that replied. Ariel suggested checking British Museum and a search of the online archive provided the answers. My view is that these are East African , Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area and would even go as far as to say they are Yao tribe origin. I'm fairly confident of the attribution but for those that have time - please check the Britsh Museum online image archive. Dont think I'm allowed to give a link but : British Museum home page - Collection online - Knife ivory ( in search box) - tick images only - then search. Scroll through the page and there will be at least 5 or 6 knives very similar to the Ivory one with strong attributions. Perhaps there needs to be some further discussion about this before confirmation. For those like me that originally suggested the Asian regions , the Yao tribe built up strong links with slave traders throughout the 19th century eventually converting to Islam around turn of 20th century. This might explain why the knives have influences from both cultures - which caused the difficulties in identification. The items held by the British museum were mostly gifted in the 1920's and 40's. These were from the estates of persons that were in Africa in a colonial capacity at or around the turn of the century. Please let me know your thoughts ?