Fossil Molar Talisman Research Needed

David · 25th October 2014, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Would I be correct in now assuming that the rare use of this material in pre-WWII days would be for the unusual and rare looks alone? Nothing in Moro or Filipino (much less Indonesia) lore mentions this material.

José, i really can't remember seeing too much of this material used in pre-WWII keris dress. It seems mostly to be a fairly contemporary usage. Somebody will now probably post some old keris hilt that they have provenance on for late 19th century or something, but when you say "rare use" i would have to agree that old examples of this material in keris dress is indeed rare and i would say that yes, that would explain why there is no lore to be found that is attached to it because most probably none exists.

Battara · 25th October 2014, 10:05 PM

Thank you David. I just edited my original last post and we must have posted at the same time.

Thank you anyway. You folks have been kind and helpful.

David · 25th October 2014, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you David. I just edited my original last post and we must have posted at the same time.

Ah, i see you changes now. The reference is a bit misplaced on the Keris Forum however, since we only discuss Indonesian keris here. I am still not familiar with any talismanic application of such material there, though that doesn't mean there is none, of course. However, i was speaking solely of its use in Indonesian keris dress which in my understanding is a rather contemporary phenomenon.

A. G. Maisey · 26th October 2014, 01:06 PM

I think you're probably pretty right about contemporary use of this material David.

I don't know of any examples of really old hilts made of this stuff. I know of the existence of one hilt with some age, in the Radya Pustaka Museum in Solo, Jawa, but even that is likely to be post WWII, or maybe at most after 1900.

It is very difficult material to work, and I personally believe that none of this material was worked until craftsmen could get hold of dentist drills.

Similarly, I don't know of any talismanic properties attached to the stuff, and if any do surface, I'd put money on it that they're a pretty recent phenomenon.

Gustav · 27th October 2014, 09:29 AM

As I wrote once before in a similar thread, there is a Sumatran, possibly Minang Keris in the Moser-Charlottenfels collection, which has a huge showy molar hilt. It was collected before 1886. By huge I mean, it has a size, which don't allow to use it practically, like some balinese Bebondolan, often with Kendhit. The provenance of this Keris is absolutely sure.

There is another, very similar Keris in Amsterdam (or Leiden).

Sorry David, yet I am not sure if I understand the general sense of your lengty and somehow light-minded sentence:

"Somebody will now probably post some old keris hilt that they have provenance on for late 19th century or something, but when you say "rare use" i would have to agree that old examples of this material in keris dress is indeed rare and i would say that yes, that would explain why there is no lore to be found that is attached to it because most probably none exists."

I am confident, you are able to understand that old museum collections are OFTEN an invaluable help to pin down an object in a time-period.

Now to the material. I am absolutely not wondering myself about the fact, people in Central Java now or decades ago werent informed, what was going on somewhere in Sumatran highlands around 1880 regarding local beliefs on this strange and impractical, and rare material. I would say, they most probably didn't have the slightest interest in a thing, which were light years off from the refined esthetics of javanese courts.

It is known, that different wood species used for Keris hilts have different amount and kind of spiritual power in Malay beliefs. The same can be said about different sorts of iron.

It is obvious that a hilt made from a quite special material in a size, which don't allow to use it practically, has a power, which is beyound the practical use. Back in those days people wouldn't pick up a piece of rubbish, drill a hole in it and fit it on a Pesi. And if they would do it, they surely would find a "lore" about it.

Which sources do we have regarding Sumatran Minang beliefs from 1880-ties about minerals? Or - about Keris?

If there are no awailable, it is still quite reckless to say, there were no such beliefs, even more when lacking the available information about the physical objects from this time.

As students of Keris we most of the time are living with awareness of fact, that the most part of beliefs/information about Keris from its beginnings on are gone forever. What we know, is much less then the visible part of an iceberg.

Sajen · 27th October 2014, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

As I wrote once before in a similar thread, there is a Sumatran, possibly Minang Keris in the Moser-Charlottenfels collection, which has a huge showy molar hilt. It was collected before 1886.

Here is this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=molar
I am sure that the hilt of my keris have a good age but of course I can't give an exact date.
I think it will be pure speculation if a molar hilt is attached to a keris or also to a kris because it has some spiritual power or it was attached because it's value. But I agree with Gustav in all what he has written in above.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 27th October 2014, 01:39 PM

Yes Gustav, we've been down this road before.

If we're talking about Sumatera, second half, 19th century, probably any definitive answer depends upon interpretation of local belief in the place where these hilts originated, at that time.

I don't have any answers in respect of this, and quite frankly, I don't have any idea where such answers might be found.

One of the repeated problems that I have found in trying to attach any reliable information in respect of belief in talismanic objects, or anything else for that matter, is that things that are often generally accepted as long standing beliefs passed down from the ancestors very often turn out to be no more than a generation or two old. Not only that, but individual informants often change direction depending on how they feel on the day.

In short, in respect of beliefs in Indonesia it is often best to qualify everything by statements that name the informant, place and time, something like:-

" on (date) I was told by (informant) that (this material) is regarded by (inhabitants of) this (place) as being very efficacious for
(whatever)" .

Ask the same person the same question next year the reply is likely to alter.

25th October 2014, 10:05 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	Thank you David. I just edited my original last post and we must have posted at the same time. Thank you anyway. You folks have been kind and helpful.

26th October 2014, 01:06 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	I think you're probably pretty right about contemporary use of this material David. I don't know of any examples of really old hilts made of this stuff. I know of the existence of one hilt with some age, in the Radya Pustaka Museum in Solo, Jawa, but even that is likely to be post WWII, or maybe at most after 1900. It is very difficult material to work, and I personally believe that none of this material was worked until craftsmen could get hold of dentist drills. Similarly, I don't know of any talismanic properties attached to the stuff, and if any do surface, I'd put money on it that they're a pretty recent phenomenon.

27th October 2014, 09:29 AM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	As I wrote once before in a similar thread, there is a Sumatran, possibly Minang Keris in the Moser-Charlottenfels collection, which has a huge showy molar hilt. It was collected before 1886. By huge I mean, it has a size, which don't allow to use it practically, like some balinese Bebondolan, often with Kendhit. The provenance of this Keris is absolutely sure. There is another, very similar Keris in Amsterdam (or Leiden). Sorry David, yet I am not sure if I understand the general sense of your lengty and somehow light-minded sentence: "Somebody will now probably post some old keris hilt that they have provenance on for late 19th century or something, but when you say "rare use" i would have to agree that old examples of this material in keris dress is indeed rare and i would say that yes, that would explain why there is no lore to be found that is attached to it because most probably none exists." I am confident, you are able to understand that old museum collections are OFTEN an invaluable help to pin down an object in a time-period. Now to the material. I am absolutely not wondering myself about the fact, people in Central Java now or decades ago werent informed, what was going on somewhere in Sumatran highlands around 1880 regarding local beliefs on this strange and impractical, and rare material. I would say, they most probably didn't have the slightest interest in a thing, which were light years off from the refined esthetics of javanese courts. It is known, that different wood species used for Keris hilts have different amount and kind of spiritual power in Malay beliefs. The same can be said about different sorts of iron. It is obvious that a hilt made from a quite special material in a size, which don't allow to use it practically, has a power, which is beyound the practical use. Back in those days people wouldn't pick up a piece of rubbish, drill a hole in it and fit it on a Pesi. And if they would do it, they surely would find a "lore" about it. Which sources do we have regarding Sumatran Minang beliefs from 1880-ties about minerals? Or - about Keris? If there are no awailable, it is still quite reckless to say, there were no such beliefs, even more when lacking the available information about the physical objects from this time. As students of Keris we most of the time are living with awareness of fact, that the most part of beliefs/information about Keris from its beginnings on are gone forever. What we know, is much less then the visible part of an iceberg.

27th October 2014, 01:39 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Yes Gustav, we've been down this road before. If we're talking about Sumatera, second half, 19th century, probably any definitive answer depends upon interpretation of local belief in the place where these hilts originated, at that time. I don't have any answers in respect of this, and quite frankly, I don't have any idea where such answers might be found. One of the repeated problems that I have found in trying to attach any reliable information in respect of belief in talismanic objects, or anything else for that matter, is that things that are often generally accepted as long standing beliefs passed down from the ancestors very often turn out to be no more than a generation or two old. Not only that, but individual informants often change direction depending on how they feel on the day. In short, in respect of beliefs in Indonesia it is often best to qualify everything by statements that name the informant, place and time, something like:- " on (date) I was told by (informant) that (this material) is regarded by (inhabitants of) this (place) as being very efficacious for (whatever)" . Ask the same person the same question next year the reply is likely to alter.