Help needed with a Mamluk kilij

ariel · 22nd October 2014, 05:02 PM

Roland,
Andrew asked a very good question.

In general, the so-caled "eastern" swords were very often of a saber pattern: curved and with the edge on the convex side.

Some had the so-called "yelman", ie widened part of the blade close to he tip, often sharpened on both sides.

The problem is that these 2 features are seen on the blades from all over, from N. Africa to India, and cannot pinpoint the origin and the age of the sword. As Alex has stressed, the devil is in the details: width, length, thickness, T-structure, structure of the fullers, other incisions, inscriptions, materials, etc, etc, etc.

Yours is definitely not Mamluk ( Egypt, Syria, parts of Iraq). IMXO, it was assembled from an old ( 19th cen) N. Indian blade and modern everything else. If you do not want to accept the opinions of several Forumites with rather extensive experience, nobody can or wishes to force you.

But just for the future:
- All of us got fooled, especially at the beginning of our collecting careers. You are not alone, old son :-(
- There is no substitute for experience and reading, reading, reading.... Any collector should have more books than collected objects.
- Never accept seller's description at face value
- Never try to convince yourself that an object you desperately want is genuine despite obviously glaring features to he contrary ( in your case, how could a Mamluk,- ie very, very old,- sword have completely pristine handle and crossguard?)
- If an object looks and costs too good to be true, it usually is.
- Repeat these points 5 times before making any bid.
- This will decrease your "wall of shame" rate by 90%, but, unfortunately, you ( just like all of us) will still be " had" occasionally. High-class museums ( including Wallace Collection) fell prey to even higher-class forgers. At the end of the day, no defensive armour can withstand a good offence by a blade.

All the best.

Sancar · 22nd October 2014, 05:43 PM

I also agree with everyone above. This is not a memlük kilij. But this is still a beautiful wootz blade. As long as you did not pay too much above its worth, you have no reason to be sad about it.

A.alnakkas · 23rd October 2014, 03:29 AM

I actually fell for such a karabela once! but it had a high carbon steel blade with a Yelman... will try to find photos, I dont remember the blade exactly but it wasnt as good as this one. Would have sucked if the item I returned had such a good blade lol.

22nd October 2014, 05:02 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Roland, Andrew asked a very good question. In general, the so-caled "eastern" swords were very often of a saber pattern: curved and with the edge on the convex side. Some had the so-called "yelman", ie widened part of the blade close to he tip, often sharpened on both sides. The problem is that these 2 features are seen on the blades from all over, from N. Africa to India, and cannot pinpoint the origin and the age of the sword. As Alex has stressed, the devil is in the details: width, length, thickness, T-structure, structure of the fullers, other incisions, inscriptions, materials, etc, etc, etc. Yours is definitely not Mamluk ( Egypt, Syria, parts of Iraq). IMXO, it was assembled from an old ( 19th cen) N. Indian blade and modern everything else. If you do not want to accept the opinions of several Forumites with rather extensive experience, nobody can or wishes to force you. But just for the future: - All of us got fooled, especially at the beginning of our collecting careers. You are not alone, old son :-( - There is no substitute for experience and reading, reading, reading.... Any collector should have more books than collected objects. - Never accept seller's description at face value - Never try to convince yourself that an object you desperately want is genuine despite obviously glaring features to he contrary ( in your case, how could a Mamluk,- ie very, very old,- sword have completely pristine handle and crossguard?) - If an object looks and costs too good to be true, it usually is. - Repeat these points 5 times before making any bid. - This will decrease your "wall of shame" rate by 90%, but, unfortunately, you ( just like all of us) will still be " had" occasionally. High-class museums ( including Wallace Collection) fell prey to even higher-class forgers. At the end of the day, no defensive armour can withstand a good offence by a blade. All the best.

22nd October 2014, 05:43 PM	#2
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	I also agree with everyone above. This is not a memlük kilij. But this is still a beautiful wootz blade. As long as you did not pay too much above its worth, you have no reason to be sad about it.

23rd October 2014, 03:29 AM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I actually fell for such a karabela once! but it had a high carbon steel blade with a Yelman... will try to find photos, I dont remember the blade exactly but it wasnt as good as this one. Would have sucked if the item I returned had such a good blade lol.