Help needed with a Mamluk kilij

ALEX · 20th October 2014, 07:47 PM

Roland,
Thank you for closeup of the handle. It helps a lot... now, the bad news...
as A.alnakkas and Ariel noted, it is not Mamluk, Ottoman, and not 17th Century. The handle is recently added. the blade is of old indian tulwar or pulwar as noted earlier. please do not estimate the age of the blade by condition, nicks and pitting.. this is only indicative of how it was stored and cared for. the metal can look very old very fast

Similarly, try not to compare to other so-called Karabelas on Internet. Comparing shapes and general profiles is wrong way to study, it takes way more. One can call it "Mamluk sword" of course, but this would be only indicative of its shape, not historic authenticity... not the best way to study and collect ethnographic arms. again, sorry for bad news, but that's the case here.

A.alnakkas · 20th October 2014, 09:17 PM

If anything, nicks tell signs that the blade was once abused by someone who did not know how to properly use a sword.

I REALLY like this blade, even though the hilt is not authentic and its sold to you as something else, its still a good piece. The blade is many levels over the usual North Indian production, its length, well made fullers and yelman and your excellent polish makes me think its a good item in any collection! Though I hope you did not pay for it what people generally pay for Mamluke items :-)

Roland_M · 21st October 2014, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Roland,
Thank you for closeup of the handle. It helps a lot... now, the bad news...
as A.alnakkas and Ariel noted, it is not Mamluk, Ottoman, and not 17th Century. The handle is recently added. the blade is of old indian tulwar or pulwar as noted earlier. please do not estimate the age of the blade by condition, nicks and pitting.. this is only indicative of how it was stored and cared for. the metal can look very old very fast

Similarly, try not to compare to other so-called Karabelas on Internet. Comparing shapes and general profiles is wrong way to study, it takes way more. One can call it "Mamluk sword" of course, but this would be only indicative of its shape, not historic authenticity... not the best way to study and collect ethnographic arms. again, sorry for bad news, but that's the case here.

Thank you for the informations. Here is the Kilij from the Internet i found. It looks very similar. I am a little astonished about the many informations you can gather from my bad pictures. I would suggest, to wait until the etching job is finished to make a final judgement.

ALEX · 21st October 2014, 11:19 AM

Roland, the key word is "similar". these two blades have common features, like most of the blades general forms kept similar for very long time, but they are centuries and continents apart. I am afraid the etching will not change anything except of improving the contrast of the pattern.

Roland_M · 21st October 2014, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Roland, the key word is "similar". these two blades have common features, like most of the blades general forms kept similar for very long time, but they are centuries and continents apart. I am afraid the etching will not change anything except of improving the contrast of the pattern.

Alex, other very similar swords are in the book: "Islamic swords and swordsmiths" from Unsal Yucel, from Plate 100 to 113, especially on Plate 112 and 113.

Here are two Pictures of the untouched and uncleaned sword.

"I am afraid the etching will not change anything except of improving the contrast of the pattern" This was the second attempt, in which i tried out something new (etching with a cloth instead of a brush), the first was much better.

A.alnakkas · 21st October 2014, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Alex, other very similar swords are in the book: "Islamic swords and swordsmiths" from Unsal Yucel, from Plate 100 to 113, especially on Plate 112 and 113.

Here are two Pictures of the untouched and uncleaned sword.

"I am afraid the etching will not change anything except of improving the contrast of the pattern" This was the second attempt, in which i tried out something new (etching with a cloth instead of a brush), the first was much better.

Can you post pictures of the sword from Yucel's book?

A.alnakkas · 21st October 2014, 06:52 PM

a similar pulwar

ALEX · 21st October 2014, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Alex, other very similar swords are in the book: "Islamic swords and swordsmiths" from Unsal Yucel, from Plate 100 to 113, especially on Plate 112 and 113...

I do not recommend comparing pictures/images when determining origin. yes, this is great way to study, but the devil is in details that can be seen only with experience and the "gut feeling" that insues mostly from handling. I certainly saw Yuncel's book and some swords pictured in it. of course they are "similar", but they are not the same. this is a critical point I am trying to convey.

Look at what A.alnakkas posted above. There are Indian blades that resemble so called "mamluk" form even more. one just needs to know and feel the difference, it'd be impossible to describe I think.

Estcrh, see Bashir Mohamed book "The Arts of the Muslim Knight" for some great examples of Mamluk arms (from Egyptian to Iraqi Ottoman dynasties - 16-19th C).

spiral · 21st October 2014, 09:48 PM

Roland, I know its hard, but these guys are correct... It
has been faked using an old Indian/Afghani blade.

If you've lost money Id try for redress against the devious sellers as soon as possible. if that's not possible then consider it a lesson learned.

Looking for similarities as a beginner doesn't work... look to spot the differences.

Better luck next time.

spiral

Emanuel · 21st October 2014, 10:51 PM

Hello,

Starting this summer I noticed a seller on ebay listing a lot of apparently very nice sabres with wootz blade and karabela-type hilt.

While the wootz blades looked very good, the overall assembly looked odd. In addition, I have not seen too many legitimetely old karabela sabres with wootz blades.

I am also of the opinion that the above sabre is a marriage of Indian blade with newer hilt and guard.

It IS a nice blade though...

Emanuel

Kubur · 21st October 2014, 06:10 PM

I agree with all my colleagues said previously.
Indian blade 19th, and may be a Polish hilt (grip) from the 21th c.
They are really good in Poland to do new hilts...
Kubur

estcrh · 21st October 2014, 06:44 PM

"Mamluk" is a term that gets tossed around but what really is a mamluk sword, were are the images of known authentic representitive examples that can be used to compare other swords against.

20th October 2014, 07:47 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Roland, Thank you for closeup of the handle. It helps a lot... now, the bad news... as A.alnakkas and Ariel noted, it is not Mamluk, Ottoman, and not 17th Century. The handle is recently added. the blade is of old indian tulwar or pulwar as noted earlier. please do not estimate the age of the blade by condition, nicks and pitting.. this is only indicative of how it was stored and cared for. the metal can look very old very fast Similarly, try not to compare to other so-called Karabelas on Internet. Comparing shapes and general profiles is wrong way to study, it takes way more. One can call it "Mamluk sword" of course, but this would be only indicative of its shape, not historic authenticity... not the best way to study and collect ethnographic arms. again, sorry for bad news, but that's the case here. Last edited by ALEX; 20th October 2014 at 07:58 PM.

21st October 2014, 06:52 PM	#7
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	a similar pulwar Attached Images

20th October 2014, 09:17 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	If anything, nicks tell signs that the blade was once abused by someone who did not know how to properly use a sword. I REALLY like this blade, even though the hilt is not authentic and its sold to you as something else, its still a good piece. The blade is many levels over the usual North Indian production, its length, well made fullers and yelman and your excellent polish makes me think its a good item in any collection! Though I hope you did not pay for it what people generally pay for Mamluke items :-)

21st October 2014, 11:19 AM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Roland, the key word is "similar". these two blades have common features, like most of the blades general forms kept similar for very long time, but they are centuries and continents apart. I am afraid the etching will not change anything except of improving the contrast of the pattern.

21st October 2014, 09:48 PM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Roland, I know its hard, but these guys are correct... It has been faked using an old Indian/Afghani blade. If you've lost money Id try for redress against the devious sellers as soon as possible. if that's not possible then consider it a lesson learned. Looking for similarities as a beginner doesn't work... look to spot the differences. Better luck next time. spiral

21st October 2014, 10:51 PM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Starting this summer I noticed a seller on ebay listing a lot of apparently very nice sabres with wootz blade and karabela-type hilt. While the wootz blades looked very good, the overall assembly looked odd. In addition, I have not seen too many legitimetely old karabela sabres with wootz blades. I am also of the opinion that the above sabre is a marriage of Indian blade with newer hilt and guard. It IS a nice blade though... Emanuel

21st October 2014, 06:10 PM	#11
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I agree with all my colleagues said previously. Indian blade 19th, and may be a Polish hilt (grip) from the 21th c. They are really good in Poland to do new hilts... Kubur

21st October 2014, 06:44 PM	#12
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	"Mamluk" is a term that gets tossed around but what really is a mamluk sword, were are the images of known authentic representitive examples that can be used to compare other swords against.