A highly important tiller gun from the Montjuic castle 1430s

fernando · 10th October 2014, 12:46 PM

This is not fair

The correct owner for this gonne would undoubtedly be me

What a great acquisition

.

cornelistromp · 10th October 2014, 02:01 PM

amazingly beautiful and rare piece, especially with the original pole.
congratulations on this sublime acquisition

best,
Jasper

Raf · 10th October 2014, 02:06 PM

Hi Marcus
Ive often wondered why these early guns seem to have quite large touch holes and not much in the way of a priming pan. In The Complete Gunner (1672 ) in the section on artificial fireworks there are a lot of references to quills packed with compressed powder for various pyrotechnic effects. So is it possible that ready prepared quills were used as priming fuzes ? In which case the soldier in your above illustration may not be about to give fire to the gun , but may as it appears be inserting something into the touch hole . Just an observation...

Marcus den toom · 10th October 2014, 02:43 PM

Michl's thread on the position of the touch hole should answer sme of your questions.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=touch+hole

The development of the priming pan was, in my opinion, mostly due to the ever further developing gun. First guns are, as can be seen in contemporary illustrations, heavy objects. Lateron this changed to a more manageable hand held gun like the one in the Michael Trömner collection.

My guess would be that when these real hand held guns arrived, they soon discovered that a better "container" for holding the black powder was needed. Especiallyin the heat of the battle when you would often run, hide... aim. It was chaotic at best and no way that a powder load would stay neatly stacked on the touchole. As stated before, the thread on the position of the touch hole tells the same story. The priming pan slowly evolved from beeing just a ridge on top of the barrel to a pan situated mostly on the right hand side.
There are instances, if i remember corectly, that a hardening gunpowder past was put in the priming pan... but if this was yet discovered/used in the times of my tiller gun, i don't know.

All of the aboove is also just an assumption

I have no evidence that this thesis is correct but it sounds the most likely to me.

Raf · 10th October 2014, 05:22 PM

Yes, I had read Michaels piece . I seemed to me that the problem was exacerbated when toucholes began to move towards the side but still without much in the way of an obvious pan . The solidified priming mass theory circumnavigates this , but also reduces them to one shot per engagement weapons which seems to me an extravagant waste of potential firepower . Maybe someone with live firing experience of hand cannons could comment .

10th October 2014, 12:46 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This is not fair The correct owner for this gonne would undoubtedly be me What a great acquisition . Last edited by fernando; 11th October 2014 at 10:54 AM.

10th October 2014, 05:22 PM	#5
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Yes, I had read Michaels piece . I seemed to me that the problem was exacerbated when toucholes began to move towards the side but still without much in the way of an obvious pan . The solidified priming mass theory circumnavigates this , but also reduces them to one shot per engagement weapons which seems to me an extravagant waste of potential firepower . Maybe someone with live firing experience of hand cannons could comment . Attached Images

10th October 2014, 02:01 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	amazingly beautiful and rare piece, especially with the original pole. congratulations on this sublime acquisition best, Jasper

10th October 2014, 02:06 PM	#3
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Hi Marcus Ive often wondered why these early guns seem to have quite large touch holes and not much in the way of a priming pan. In The Complete Gunner (1672 ) in the section on artificial fireworks there are a lot of references to quills packed with compressed powder for various pyrotechnic effects. So is it possible that ready prepared quills were used as priming fuzes ? In which case the soldier in your above illustration may not be about to give fire to the gun , but may as it appears be inserting something into the touch hole . Just an observation...

10th October 2014, 02:43 PM	#4
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Michl's thread on the position of the touch hole should answer sme of your questions. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=touch+hole The development of the priming pan was, in my opinion, mostly due to the ever further developing gun. First guns are, as can be seen in contemporary illustrations, heavy objects. Lateron this changed to a more manageable hand held gun like the one in the Michael Trömner collection. My guess would be that when these real hand held guns arrived, they soon discovered that a better "container" for holding the black powder was needed. Especiallyin the heat of the battle when you would often run, hide... aim. It was chaotic at best and no way that a powder load would stay neatly stacked on the touchole. As stated before, the thread on the position of the touch hole tells the same story. The priming pan slowly evolved from beeing just a ridge on top of the barrel to a pan situated mostly on the right hand side. There are instances, if i remember corectly, that a hardening gunpowder past was put in the priming pan... but if this was yet discovered/used in the times of my tiller gun, i don't know. All of the aboove is also just an assumption I have no evidence that this thesis is correct but it sounds the most likely to me.