Chinese (or other country) sai/parrying weapon

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Some more (possibly) Chinese cha/sai:

Group of Highbinder weapons including a sai: http://amst312.umwblogs.org/2009/01/29/the-highbinders/

http://www.jikishinkobudo.com/articl...ection/8756081

Further to my earlier comments on trying to identify the origin of a particular sai, Okinawa was a major trade centre, connecting China, Korea, Japan, and the Philippines. A lot of trade went through Okinawa, with Chinese goods proceeding to Japan and the Philippines, and Japanese goods going to Chinese and SE Asia. Given domestic Okinawan iron production being what it was (I've seen it described as "absent"), a lot of "Okinawan" iron goods may well have been imported in the finished state, rather than being locally made.

Timo, as you know sai have been discussed repeatedly on various forums with many claims being made but usually no proof is furnished or images posted to back up what anyone is saying and in the end no new evidence is produced. Here we finally have at least a few images and some information to work with.

I have no knowledge of whether Okinawa produced its own iron products or if they imported tools and weapons from China etc, what I do know is that from the 1600s on Okinawa was under samurai control and I think that would preclude the open importation of weapons except possibly for the use of sanctioned police and security officials. Other individuals would have had to secretly import or forge their own from existing metal supplies. That is why Okinawa developed martial arts and wooden weapons from what I understand. This would also explain the scarcity of antique sai today.

Your one link was to a newspaper / magazine article from the late 1800s early 1900s? depicting the Chinese criminal element brought to American with imported Chinese laborers. It shows the types of weapons confiscated from Chinese criminals including a sai with a wrapped hilt.

Highbinder, a member of a Chinese-American secret society that engaged in blackmail, murder, etc, named after the High-binders, a New York city gang.

The other links is very interesting, its shows a sai from the Royal Armories identified as being Chinese while at the same time it questions were it actually originated and asks for help in identifying it, which is exactly what we are discussing here.

Antique Sai in the British Collection
By Jikishin Kobudo, Sep 27 2013 11:00AM
We are fortunate to practice martial arts amongst one of the largest collections of arms and armour in the world, at the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds, England.

One of the objects on is display is exhibit XXVIM.17: Listed as a Chinese parrying weapon. The weapon is steel and measures 48.9cm in length. Its shaft is octagonal and the hilt is very sturdy.

The exact age of this weapon has not yet been determined, but we believe it to be at least one hundred years old. This weapon was purchased from a collection of South and East Asian weapons in the second half of the 20th century.

At the moment we are investigating as to whether this item is Okinawan or indeed Chinese and would welcome the thoughts of other martial artists with experience in this area. The item can be viewed at the museum inside the Oriental Gallery.

[Timo Nieminen]

Note the very similar sai in post #10. Overall, very Chinese. Pommel is in a Chinese style, guard is attached in a Chinese style, the tip is in a Chinese style (also seen on longer jian maces). Of course, if other people used the same styles, it could be from elsewhere. But to me, it looks very Chinese.

I've only seen a few sources comment on Okinawan iron production (all Japanese, all saying there was none). Okinawa certainly imported weapons and iron tools from both Japan and China. A lot of Japanese weapons passed through on the way to China as well. Iron tools (and probably weapons) were manufactured locally from imported iron. This last point means that while we might be able to identify iron as Chinese or Japanese (or Indian, or more recently, European scrap iron) in origin, it still doesn't tell us where the item in question was made, since iron was traded as a raw material and locally smithed.

Weapons restrictions on Okinawa predate Japanese rule (iirc, they date to the unification by the kings of Chuzan (ruling from Shuri)). However, a lot of karate mythology talks about the development of karate to fight the Japanese, so blames disarmament on the Japanese. It's best to largely ignore the mythology (which includes choice elements such as karate punches being designed to pierce Japanese wooden/bamboo armour, which was not what Japanese soldiers/samurai wore). The sai certainly has history on Okinawa as a police truncheon. This role was taken by jutte in Japan, so I wouldn't expect to see many Japanese sai. As noted upthread, the sai was also used by Chinese police (but I think less often than the iron ruler). It's very likely that the sai was adopted in Okinawa from Chinese use.

In China, the main use of the Sai seems to have been in Fujian and Taiwan. Taiwanese use would have come from Fujianese use. Fujian was also closely connected by trade and travel to Okinawa and SE Asia, and is a likely entry point for the sai into China if it was adopted from Indonesian use.

(The Highbinder sai might well be American-made, but would have been made in the traditional Chinese style.)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Note the very similar sai in post #10. Overall, very Chinese. Pommel is in a Chinese style, guard is attached in a Chinese style, the tip is in a Chinese style (also seen on longer jian maces). Of course, if other people used the same styles, it could be from elsewhere. But to me, it looks very Chinese.

But did other cultures have the same pommel style, either before the Chinese adaptation of it or by copying the Chinese style, I think a lot of information from Okinawa and Indonesia is missing.

Here are a couple of known Indonesian sai to compare.

[estcrh]

The lack of iron production in Okinawa is mentioned in this book "Okinawa:The History of an Island People" By George Kerr, the restrictions on importing weapons into Okinawa is mentioned as well.

[josh stout]

The top one I posted is from an area of Northern Sumatra where Chinese laborers were brought by the British in the late 19th c. The set of two and the other one with a wooden handle are all Chinese. All three are octagonal. The set with brass guards and pommel has a scoring line accentuating the rounded points. The other wooden handled Chinese example has a flat tip. The Sumatran one looks exactly like the other Indonesian examples shown.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by josh stout

The top one I posted is from an area of Northern Sumatra where Chinese laborers were brought by the British in the late 19th c. The set of two and the other one with a wooden handle are all Chinese. All three are octagonal. The set with brass guards and pommel has a scoring line accentuating the rounded points. The other wooden handled Chinese example has a flat tip. The Sumatran one looks exactly like the other Indonesian examples shown.

Josh, thanks for adding your sai here, I put it next to some other sai from the same area to compare. I think this is the most images of sai from the Indonesian area ever in place. Unfortunately I do not know of any sai that is known to have come from Okinawa. Your Chinese sai are quite nice, the vast majority of achinese sai seem to be four sided.

[josh stout]

That is very interesting. One of them looks so much like mine that I think it may be the same one. As far as I know I have never posted a photo, so it would have had to come from the Indonesian seller and be several years old.

What do you think?

[KraVseR]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Timo, as you know sai have been discussed repeatedly on various forums with many claims being made but usually no proof is furnished or images posted to back up what anyone is saying and in the end no new evidence is produced. Here we finally have at least a few images and some information to work with.

I have no knowledge of whether Okinawa produced its own iron products or if they imported tools and weapons from China etc, what I do know is that from the 1600s on Okinawa was under samurai control and I think that would preclude the open importation of weapons except possibly for the use of sanctioned police and security officials. Other individuals would have had to secretly import or forge their own from existing metal supplies. That is why Okinawa developed martial arts and wooden weapons from what I understand. This would also explain the scarcity of antique sai today.

Your one link was to a newspaper / magazine article from the late 1800s early 1900s? depicting the Chinese criminal element brought to American with imported Chinese laborers. It shows the types of weapons confiscated from Chinese criminals including a sai with a wrapped hilt.




The other links is very interesting, its shows a sai from the Royal Armories identified as being Chinese while at the same time it questions were it actually originated and asks for help in identifying it, which is exactly what we are discussing here.

What weapons are depicted on this image? Help please.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by KraVseR

What weapons are depicted on this image? Help please.

Do you mean this image?

[KraVseR]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Do you mean this image?

Yes.

[Timo Nieminen]

If you're asking what they are:
A Chinese fighting knife, of the kind shown/discussed in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15217 and http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15728
A revolver. (Is that the holster at the top above it?)
A pair of butterfly swords (hudiedao) in one scabbard.
What looks like a fan-knife, a knife disguised as a folded fan.
Another (larger) fighting knife like the above.
A cha/sai.
A hatchet (looks Western).
A cooking knife.
A pair of jian maces in one scabbard, like the ones linked a few posts upthread.

[Shakethetrees]

Since we seem to be drifting into a more general discussion, I would like to show a little piece that I've had for thirty years.

It's marked "Made by Rollin White for Smith and Wesson".

.22 caliber short, but the most interesting thing to this discussion (and to me, personally), is that the cylinder is engraved with three Chinese characters (old style) "People of Min (Fujian) Province"

I was stumped on this character but an old Chinese man recognized it and explained that Min Province became Fukien (Fujian in pinyin) sometime in the early 20th century.

This pistol bears a striking resemblance to the one illustrated in the old newspaper article.

It also could have been used in China during one or another revolutionary uprising during the 19th or 20th centuries, or, by a member of a Tong during the aforementioned periods, possibly in San Francisco.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Since we seem to be drifting into a more general discussion, I would like to show a little piece that I've had for thirty years.

It's marked "Made by Rollin White for Smith and Wesson".

.22 caliber short, but the most interesting thing to this discussion (and to me, personally), is that the cylinder is engraved with three Chinese characters (old style) "People of Min (Fujian) Province"

I was stumped on this character but an old Chinese man recognized it and explained that Min Province became Fukien (Fujian in pinyin) sometime in the early 20th century.

This pistol bears a striking resemblance to the one illustrated in the old newspaper article.

It also could have been used in China during one or another revolutionary uprising during the 19th or 20th centuries, or, by a member of a Tong during the aforementioned periods, possibly in San Francisco.

Rollin White (June 6, 1817 – March 22, 1892) was an American gunsmith who invented a bored-through revolver cylinder that allowed metallic cartridges to be loaded from the rear of a revolver's cylinder.

In interesting gun, is it the 7 shot model? Thanks to posting it and your other items, all part of history. I have seen several weapons from other countries end up in China, brought there by foreign military forces, one in particular is a very distintive Indian axe, most likely left by Indian troops serving with the British in China. The other possibility is that the pistol was inscribed in America by a Chinese national working in the US.

[josh stout]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Since we seem to be drifting into a more general discussion, I would like to show a little piece that I've had for thirty years.

It's marked "Made by Rollin White for Smith and Wesson".

.22 caliber short, but the most interesting thing to this discussion (and to me, personally), is that the cylinder is engraved with three Chinese characters (old style) "People of Min (Fujian) Province"

I was stumped on this character but an old Chinese man recognized it and explained that Min Province became Fukien (Fujian in pinyin) sometime in the early 20th century.

This pistol bears a striking resemblance to the one illustrated in the old newspaper article.

It also could have been used in China during one or another revolutionary uprising during the 19th or 20th centuries, or, by a member of a Tong during the aforementioned periods, possibly in San Francisco.

Thanks for posting the very interesting handgun. I am fascinated for a number of reasons, but I am worried that this will get us off the more general thread on "fighting irons" or "sword-breakers". Perhaps you could post a separate thread? I would love to comment.

[Shakethetrees]

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Since we seem to be drifting into a more general discussion, I would like to show a little piece that I've had for thirty years.

As I said in my initial posting when I put the images of the pistol up, I plan on re posting this in its own thread.

It was only due to the illustration and the almost exact similarity to the pistol shown in the weapons vignette!